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#35669 - 02/25/05 06:33 AM longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
I saw your inquiry at TPC re: this topic. I dont know the entire genetics of silver but I do breed them, rather, I am just starting with the silver duckwings. I will know the genotype soon!
the longtails have (Gt) which allows for the continual growth of tail and saddles, and (mt) which is non moulting in some feathers. there is also a gene for multiple fesathering which allows more feathers to grow at the end of the back and beginning of the tail head. You can see and feel the gob of feathering at that point. there is some thought that the non moulting gene has some deliterious effects and could cause weakness and shortened life span. Brian Reeder has done much research re; this topic. There is a lot of work being done on the longtails and more is being learned all the time. I think that the more dedicated breeders in this country will be way ahead of the game in a few more years than the Japanese were able to do in hundreds of years.
My original intention for my longtails was to just run loose and be ornaments for the gardens but they are taking over my breeding interests, they are fascinating
I think my bantams could be taken in a couple of directions, they seem to have proto Onagadori genetics, the long feathers which are very thin with continued blood feathering. I am not dedicated enuff for that direction tho. I will persue a more Phoenix like type with the wider geather, the slate legs and the white ear lobes. also a new line of SumatraXPhoenix line with red lobes and a pea comb but not as in Yokohamas.

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#35670 - 02/25/05 07:14 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the genetics on the long tail trait, rob. I feel kind of dumb here because after I offered to help roosterron with his leg colour problem, I went to look for my notes on chicken genetics and haven't been able to find all of them. Just my luck, long tail and silver colour were some of the notes I couldn't find. I still have my notes on leg colour but without knowing the genotype for silver they are not much help, since some genes that produce colour affect leg colour also. Right now I'm looking all over the house and on the internet for them. Thanks again for the long tail genes. duckboy
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#35671 - 02/25/05 02:44 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
There are a couple sites dedicated to longtails: Strut Your Stuff,,,Longtail Breeders and Enthusiasts,,,,I think they each link to others,,, there is also Marc kings excellent site on longtails and longcrowers. Go to MSN groups and search under hobbies,, try a google search for longtail fowl and some will pop up.

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#35672 - 02/27/05 12:28 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Offline
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Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
Hi, rob. I emailed Brian Reeder and he was able to tell me the genotype for the silver colour. I've found some of my notes but some are still missing. I should be able to help out roosterron now with what I have. Thanks again.
duckboy
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#35673 - 03/03/05 12:21 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Kurro Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/11/04
Posts: 33
Loc: Spain
Well silver usually is e+ e+, S S

e+= wild-type
S= silver and itīs sex linked

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#35674 - 03/03/05 02:10 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
OK , then whats gold?as in duckwing (E+) and (E+ and E+S are used to make gold.

Another thing Idont grasp is gold has a thin black line thru the hackles in males and females; gold duckwing males have clear hackles but the females are supposed to have the black; is the standard wrong? I am trying to breed my duckwing hens with no black, i still get a few. Then it shows in the males too?

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#35675 - 03/04/05 06:37 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Offline
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Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
I'm thinking that gold would be e+/e+. But duck genetics are my speicalty not chcikens so I may be wrong. I also think that there has to be some difference in genes between the colours with striped hackles and non-striped hackles.
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#35676 - 03/04/05 01:58 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Kurro Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/11/04
Posts: 33
Loc: Spain
Well,
gold is = e+e+ ss ,with stripes in the wing feathers and hackles in male and female.There maybe two diferents types one dark and one dark too but a bit more clear (in my wild type Utreranas), I think maybe lv (lavender gene) or other which modified red.Dark must be dominant on dark a bit more clear as I can see when I breed my flock.
EE ss(E+E+ ss in the actual nomination) is another gold too but has not good stripes at wing in the male, male and female has red with stripes at hackles, female is black. If male or female has black at hackles then they have the Ml gene.
Anyway you may have some graduation if you have Ee+ ss for example, or if you have e+ eWh ss....

The standar is diferent between birchen , black red, brown red, silver duckwing , yellow duckwing or golden duckwing but this are the genes in play.

Do you know the gene which change yellow duckwing in golden duckwing?

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#35677 - 03/05/05 10:36 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
BBRed:............ e+/e+ s+/s+
Silver Duckwing:. e+/e+ S /S
Gold Duckwing:... e+/e+ S /s+

I don't know if it has been determined formally the genetic differences between stripe hackled e+ (eg Light Brown Leghorn) & non-striped hackled e+ (BBRed OEG) roosters. Jeffrey listed the OEG non-striped hackled e+ genotype as having "a factor for black striping in hackle and saddle of male lacking". From memory, I think Dr O may have mentioned the lack of hackle striping as the "wild type", ie not a mutation, suggesting the non-striped hackles is found in Red Jungle Fowls. But Jeffrey is saying the opposite, ie striping is the wild type, as found in Red Jungle Fowl (Red Jungle Fowl at Feathersite have some variation in amount, but all seem to have some striping- would need to rule out domestic crosses). Regardless which phenotype is the mutation, it seems from Jeffrey's OEGB book that the non-striped e+ roo is a complex trait, as not a simple matter of dominant/recessive breeding.

Wheaten roos tend not to have the striping, or reduced amount. Anders has mentioned to me that exhibition Wheaten (eWh/eWh) or heterozygous (e+/eWh) roos may be placed in in BBRed Game classes at shows. If the phenotype fits the Standard, it doesn't matter what the genotype is. So some exhibition BBRed cockerel lines may not even have the e+ gene (or heterozygous).

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#35678 - 03/06/05 06:53 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Offline
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Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
If the genotype for Gold Duckwing is e+/e+,S/s+ then this meens that you can never get Gold Duckwing coloured hens, since the Silver gene is sex-linked. Are you sure there isn't different gene being used. Just a thought, but maybe some of the genes that are used for the Red Shouldered colour like on Yokohamas.
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#35679 - 03/06/05 08:12 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
I have a chart showing the breeding of Goldens. I would NEVER do it myself, as I breed Dutch and there is the Cream Light Brown variety that breeds true, stronger color, females beautifully distinct, and you do not have the problems that breeding Goldens brings to future generations.

You are right, Golden females are only genetically "golden", they resemble Silver females and you will only be sure which are goldens in certain combinations. I have never seen Golden females exhibited, as they appear just like Silvers.

Light Brown (or BBRed) male x Silver female produces F1,-- all Golden males, all LB or BBRed females.

F2 produces LB males, Golden males, LB females and Golden females (that appear to be Silvers) these females must be marked for future breedings prediction.

On the other hand, breed a Silver male to a LB or BBRed female produces F1, all Golden offspring. It is the next generation that can confuse breeding. F2 will be Golden and Silver males, and LB, Silver and Golden females. Silver males will likely have rust or smut on their backs or shoulders.(and this most often breeds forward.) And in this generation, these Golden females cannot be distinguished from the Silver females, and these females can be a real problem in selecting next breeders. And Golden females sold as Silver females can really mess up future Silver breedings, as the males may carry that rust or smut on the white of the back and shoulders! With space, records,you can have another generation of predictable results that can be posted,, but this is too much to add here, and can really mix up things if birds are not kept well identified. CJR

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#35680 - 03/06/05 08:39 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
CJR Correct me if I am wrong.From the way I understand it the only way for sure to tell if a female is golden is to breed her to a silver male. If she hatches golden males she is golden. If you get 100% silver males than she doesn`t carry the golden gene. And you do have to know that the silver male you use does not carry a golden gene for this to work. Rog
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#35681 - 03/06/05 11:48 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
The hens I am using in the gold breedings are similar to the light brown hens but the hackles are golden and not red as in the light broen hems?? what then atr these females w. the gold neck hackles?

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#35682 - 03/06/05 11:49 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
CJR I don't unstand what you meen when you said, "You are right, Golden females are only genetically "golden", they resemble Silver females and you will only be sure which are goldens in certain combinations. I have never seen Golden females exhibited, as they appear just like Silvers." If they are genetically golden, what is the genotype? KazJaps said that the golden genotype was e+/e+,S/s+. Again, if this is the genotype for golden then you could never get a golden hen because silver is sexlinked. Wich meens that at that site a hen can only have one gene present, either S or s+. This would make the colour of the hens silver or black red.
As for the stripes in the neck hackles, like the Light Brown colour, I was wondering if they could be caused by the Dark Brown "Db" gene.
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#35683 - 03/06/05 03:46 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
DUCKBOY, I can't do much more than describe what I learned from H. Gankema, Holland. He lists in his book "Inheritance of Feather Colors", Silver: e+e+SS or S-, Golden: e+e+Ss, autosomal red. H. Gankema described the reason that Silver males so often had the color in the white back and shoulders--using Golden females that looked like Silvers.

Jeffrey does not list Db, but only "modifying genes", AND autosomal red for Goldens. He worked mainly with OEGB. Different breeds, some different results, and much remains to be learned.

I will repeat the formula: Silver male to LB or BBRed female=--all GOLDEN offspring, but the genetically golden females look like Silvers. This is the only color breeding that you can be assured of producing Goldens in all the offspring. Breeding those Goldens together, sorts them back out to Golden and Silver males (Silver males may have rust on them), LB or BBRed, Golden, and Silver females.

The Silver females from this mating, bred to Golden males produces Golden and Silver males and Silver and Golden females (but which are which??) You are in the dark with the females!! It is not good for any breed, as those birds cannot produce what they may be promised, when sold.

Golden female from the same generation bred back to Golden male puts you right back with offspring being Golden and Silver males and Golden, Silver and LB,BBRed females. And on . . .

The Golden male bred to the LB,BBRed female, prodces Silver and LB, BBRed males and Golden and LB,BBRed females. (The Golden female looks like a Silver female, but you know she is Golden from the formula, IF YOU KEEP good RECORDS).

In the early 1900s an artist painted what he was sure would be a Golden female. None ever existed or exists, as painted. Ron Okimoto could have explained it more clearly. This is all I can offer--and it is from several genetics books, as well as direct questions to the authors, to answer questions mainly about how to get the pure white back in the Silver males! (answer, if Golden-bred-maybe NEVER.!)

As for hackle stripe, Red Junglefowl male (Gallus gallus), I think did not have hackle striping, but the female does. The Ceylon Junglefowl male (Gallus Laffayetti) does, his female, only lightly.

There is just a lot no one knows, and we can learn ourselves, quite a bit more, with breedings and good records of results.

I am a collector of genetics information, mainly only the varieties I raise. Am working with Ginger Red right now, that has sorted out from MilleFleur, and Blue Light Brown, F2, F3, F4--and an 9 weeks old female F1xF3 cross is looking like a really nice Blue Buff Columbian. It is possible, but I will be patient until after her first molt! I like to know HOW to do it, and not just be surprised! KazJaps has been a great help. Print out her posts! I am thankful I printed Rokimoto's posts on genetic information!
Carry on. . .
CJR

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#35684 - 03/06/05 06:14 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
CJR thanks for your info on hackle stripes.
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#35685 - 03/20/05 07:16 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Anonymous
Unregistered


visit this site:

http://groups.msn.com/AmericanLongtailFowl

There are very experienced breeder there that can help.

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#35686 - 03/21/05 05:31 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
Thyanks I'll check it out.
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#95628 - 04/09/11 04:05 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy) [Re: Duck Boy]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3769
Loc: Denmark
This is an old thread, but in case somebody hits it:

There is no such thing as golden duckwing female. Only a rooster can be a golden duckwing. Females can only be either silver or gold. The words 'golden duckwing' are 'reserved' for roosters which are e+/e+ S/s+. If you see a hen which looks 'golden' then she is most probably cream(or yellow partridge in UK) e+/e+ s+ ig/ig

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#95655 - 04/12/11 05:32 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy) [Re: Wieslaw]
Sigi Offline
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
We're a lot further now, see how fast we learn, lol

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