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#39135 - 10/13/08 01:45 AM Wyandottes
Hen-Gen Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 1141
Loc: Island of Fetlar, Shetland
OK, all you Wyandotte breeders. smile
Theory says that true breeding rose comb males have impared sperm vitality and for this reason there is a level of heterozygosity in the population.
I would be very interested to know how often, percentage wise, you produce single combed chicks from rose combed parents.
Obviously this applies to any rose combed breed so anyone who breeds Hamburghs, Sebrights, Rosecomb Leghorns etc I'd like to hear your observations too.
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#39136 - 10/13/08 03:33 AM Re: Wyandottes
Raf Offline
Bantam

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Australia
0 from 65 this season.

Raf

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#39137 - 10/13/08 03:40 AM Re: Wyandottes
Mau Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 650
Loc: United Kingdom
How often: too often.
smile

Given a reasonable ratio of healthy males and females in breeding pens rather i don't think there are likely to be discerable differences fdue to the comb factor. There isn't enough selection pressure in an enviroment with a single male.

I notice plently of difference in fertility/live chicks between strains from year to year but cannot link it to those that throw single combs.
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#39138 - 10/13/08 10:27 AM Re: Wyandottes
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
Test matings will take care of the problem. But all too often the hetero male will have some desireable trait that isn't available in another male, so the cycle continues. I don't see it as a major problem, as the single comb chicks can be culled at hatch if one does not care to raise them.
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#39139 - 10/13/08 03:04 PM Re: Wyandottes
Kathy W. Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 273
Loc: New York
At one point I read (here?) that the rose comb males' sperm isn't viable as long as single comb males - not that the fertility, per se, is lower.

If that is the case, if the rooster stays with the hens, a homozygous rose comb rooster shouldn't be a problem.

Kathy

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#39140 - 10/13/08 03:44 PM Re: Wyandottes
Blackdotte Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 913
Loc: Australia
You can only get single comb chicks if both parents are heterozygous, R/r+. As stated above ,test mating will tell you what you have. Even if you cull every single comb chick at birth the trait will continue to be expressed. In commercial flocks of Silver Laced Standard birds approximately 19% single comb chicks were produced.
1:1 or 1:3 pen matings will give nearly no single comb due to the more frequent matings.

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#39141 - 10/13/08 09:12 PM Re: Wyandottes
Foehn Offline
Administrator
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1968
Loc: New Zealand
I wonder if that's true of the wyandottes we have here? Our NZ birds are isolated, so the strain is "old" in terms of bloodlines. There's also a strong likelihood that most birds have a common bloodline that goes back to whenever they were last allowed to be imported. I don't know of anyone researching this, so perhaps to find an answer, one would have to look at articles written a very long time ago.

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#39142 - 10/14/08 12:38 AM Re: Wyandottes
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Homo or hetero rose comb doesn't have to do with age of the strain, its a trait, switched on or off. If you see a rose, then there is at least one R.
R acts always the same.

Bad over all fertility and poor chicks (in white Wyandottes) can't be compared to the occurence of single or rose comb. Poor fertility is another issue, it popped up in the time the Wyandotte was still a double purpose chicken somewhere 1920s.

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#39143 - 10/14/08 01:51 AM Re: Wyandottes
Foehn Offline
Administrator
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1968
Loc: New Zealand
Sigi, appreciate your input but I think you missed the point of my pondering which is precisely because of the isolation in which NZ hens are bred. Because we cannot import new strains, we may have missed some of the traits that are common in international birds.

The Araucana in NZ is a good case in point. They are distinctly different from araucanas in the USA for instance. Ours have tails.

Since my wyandotte hens have very good fertility, and robust chicks this led me to question the above statements as true of all wyandottes. I've also never seen a single combed wyandotte unless it is from an out cross to a different breed.

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#39144 - 10/14/08 07:28 AM Re: Wyandottes
Moo Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 410
Loc: Washington
I have never had a single comb pop up in any of my wyandottes. When I had the solid duns I had a couple people ask for single combed birds for other projects but I never got any.
I hatched out close to 300 wyandotte chicks this year from my whites, dun laced, and silver laced and got no single combs. Maybe its because the lines I have (other than dun and dun laced) have been around for so long. As far as fertility goes in the wyandottes it was pretty good, about 85%-90% and I did weekly hatches.
With my silver pencilled hamburgs I got all rose combs and had good fertility. Now that I think about it I dont think I have ever seen a single combed hamburg or sebright.

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#39145 - 10/14/08 09:36 AM Re: Wyandottes
Hen-Gen Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 1141
Loc: Island of Fetlar, Shetland
Thanks for your input, guys. So it seems that the impared sperm motility and viability of pure rosecombed cockerels is of negligible importance in most practical situations.
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#39146 - 10/14/08 02:43 PM Re: Wyandottes
Choc Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 489
Loc: England
I would agree with that Hen-Gen. I have bred thousands of wyandottes over the years and there is nothing to suggest to me the link between rose combed birds and reduced sperm viability.
However, that is just my experience.

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#39147 - 10/14/08 04:00 PM Re: Wyandottes
IPF Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Canada
The fact that homozygous (RR) males don't appear to have reduced fertility does not prove that there is not differential sperm motility/viability between R and r sperm.

If there are no r sperm to compete with, an R sperm will always "win". Only if the rooster is heterozygous, will the discrepancy (if it indeed exists) appear.

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#39148 - 10/14/08 04:24 PM Re: Wyandottes
Blackdotte Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 913
Loc: Australia
If you have heterozygous R/r+ birds and,as most exhibition breeders do, use very high cock:hen breeding ratios you may never see a single comb.
But if you go to commercial cock: hen breeding ratios of 1 cock to at least 25 hens then the single comb will become more apparent. Free ranging will exacerbate the situation.
The r+ single comb gene must however be present.
Many breeders have,by test matings, got rid of the r+ gene, and that maybe why single combs are not seen in NZ, or in Choc & Mau's birds.

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#39149 - 10/15/08 05:19 AM Re: Wyandottes
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
That was just what I was thinking. When you breed a flock for enough years and 1:1 or 1:2 ratio, the r+ should disappear.

Here are breeders of the Wyandotte club who do have single comb birds and yes they have their birds outside in large pens.
I guess when the cock has a special hen, he doesn't jump enough on the others, even if there are only 3 or 2 hens.

Another question on single combs in rose.
The single comb is there when the R fraction in the sperm dies and only r+ is still active. Means the cock is heterozygous.
So the R not changing into r+ after a while? R just stops to exist?

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#39150 - 10/15/08 06:09 PM Re: Wyandottes
Blackdotte Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 913
Loc: Australia
Quote:
When you breed a flock for enough years and 1:1 or 1:2 ratio, the r+ should disappear.
No, it could still be still be there, but the frequency will be reduced. Only sure way to get rid of it is to test mate.

Quote:
So the R not changing into r+ after a while?
Correct R does not change into r+.

Quote:
R just stops to exist?
The R allele dies after about 3 days; the r+ allele lives on for up to around 21 days.

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#39151 - 10/16/08 11:27 AM Re: Wyandottes
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
That means that if there is no r+ in a flock anymore, and the cock doesn't mate enough, there's a high percentage of empty eggs?

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