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#40735 - 09/29/06 06:19 PM Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Anonymous
Unregistered


Can anyone tell me what color genes makeup the Lakenvelder color??

What varieties can be crossed to make this color? I may know the answer to this after I learn what the genes are that make this color. I am not a newbie to poultry genetics, but I have never studied the Lakenvelder color before.
Thanks

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#40736 - 09/29/06 06:51 PM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Blackdotte Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 913
Loc: Australia
As the required undercolour is blue/grey this would indicate ebeb,legs are slate so white skin WW possibly with Id.Basic colour is Silver SS,restricted by Columbian CoCo,with Hackle Black(from Barnevelders?)and white ear lobes(Columbian leghorn?).

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#40737 - 09/30/06 09:14 AM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Hi,
I'm a Lakenvelder breeder from Holland. I agree with the genotype eb/eb,Co/Co,S/(S) with additional melanizers. There's your basic Hackle black and at least a dominant head melanizer.

I crossed vorwerkbantam to red pyle e+ based dutch bantam. The result were buff columbians with basic hackle black and poorly melanized heads, but one cockerel showed an almost fully melanized head! All crosslings did not have a fully melanized outer rim to the hackle feathers.
Since the red pyle will not have any of the typical lakenvelder melanizers (except the basic hackle black maybe) at least the headmelanizer is dominant and not homozygous in my vorwerk showquality parent. Furthermore the hens from the cross were two types: a "light quail" type (additional melanizer) and a clean buff columbian type, all with poorly melanized head.
Note that the crosslings are e+/eb,Co/co+,s+/(s+), and heterozygous melanizers.
The head melanizer should be more effective in males, although my lakenvelder cockerels suffer from a little witheness on the top of their heads. Maybe the different melanizers are alleles of each other.

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#40738 - 09/30/06 09:51 AM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
continued:
The head/hackle region of the lakenvelder must be thoroughly melanized. This can fail in a few ways, at least in my lakenvelder strain: Most of the time the front side hackles outer rim turns white. With the animals that DO have solid black hackles the head can still become pretty white with white lacing spreading down the base of the hackles. This is permitted in the dutch standard for the hens.
So the "outer rim hackleblack" and the headmelanizer seem to operate independantly.

Back to creating a lakenvelder from other stock.
Vorwerk would be great but is probably as rare.
I suspect the headmelanizer is present in dutch owlbeard blackhead/moorkop or blackcrested white polish. Columbian wyandotte should have correct "basic" hackle black and eb,Co,S configuration.
When a separate outerrim hackle black factor exists, I wouldn't know which breed has it (except of course lakenvelder and vorwerk wink )

Note that the lakenvelder melanizers would be suitable to create a fully black bird from an E-based bird (extended black without melanizers). Maybe some black strains contain the desired ones.

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#40739 - 10/04/06 04:08 PM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks very much for the info.

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#40740 - 11/14/06 03:32 AM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Henk69:
I crossed vorwerkbantam to red pyle e+ based dutch bantam. The result were buff columbians with basic hackle black and poorly melanized heads, but one cockerel showed an almost fully melanized head!
Update: this last cockerel bleached out in the end to become as buff columbian as the others.

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#40741 - 01/31/07 03:40 AM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Joachim Dippold Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1823
Loc: Austria
Hello Henk,

interesting thread! You said "When a separate outerrim hackle black factor exists, I wouldn't know which breed has it (except of course lakenvelder and vorwerk )". I thought this might fit in here:

I am in contact with an American Brahma breeder who wrote:

Quote:
we were discussing your Red dude, and i wanted to say that the black in the cape of his hackle is coming from his "dark" ancestry, dark as in dark Cornish. That's what happened when i used Barnevelder x Blue Laced Red Wyandotte & visa versa crosses.
Heīs speaking of our Red Columbian cockerel with the black hackles and cape, this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU0EtGirxVg

Iīm currently searching for Barnevelder genetics of hackle and will keep you updated when i find something. All i can say for now is that some of our Brahmas do indeed have "black-laced/rimmed" black hackles, sorry for the weird typo! Itīs like a black rim around the hackle-black stripe. I can see this black rim/lace in both our pullets and cockerels, so i guess itīs gotta be an autosomal gene, however itīs called, right?

Best greetings and thanks for your update,

Joachim

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#40742 - 01/31/07 10:14 AM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Joachim,
pullets and cockerels have the same genes.
Only the little W chromosome is not present in males, and the Z chromosome only once in pullets (per cell).

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#40743 - 01/31/07 01:08 PM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Choc Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 489
Loc: England
Hi agree all the way, lakenfelders are eb co possibly ml, cha and hackle black or something like that.

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#40744 - 01/31/07 01:22 PM Re: Lakenvelder Color Genes ???????
Joachim Dippold Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1823
Loc: Austria
Thanks Henk!

Though, this was not what i meant. This is "too detailed" for me to understand, i only meant itīs not like, say sexlinked barring;-)

As for the outer hackleblack: i did a bit of counting and sorting this afternoon and from our 25 cockerels almost half our boys have this black rim. Iīll start a new thread and add our pullets to the chart tomorrow - hopefully;-)

Interesting (to me) is the fact that all our cockerels have full hackleblack and some of our pullets have "broken" hackleblack. Also we have several "Mrs. Black Hackles", too.

EDIT: here is the chart from our cockerels:
http://www.krassesrudel.at/hackleblackstatistik.xls

Best greetings,

Joachim

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