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#53950 - 11/07/03 09:02 PM Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Rokimoto,

This may sound like a rookey move, but it never occurred to me to ask what "breed" the smoky gene was residing in. Ha ha, details, always details. Do you happen to recall which particular breed it is in?

Also, when I was discussing the smoky gene with Dr. Whiting, he mentioned that the University stock had the blue gene mixed in with the smoky gene. Is there anything in particular about this combination that would make seperating these two difficult phenotypically? Such as similar down expressions or adult expressions?

Regards,
Dan

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#53951 - 11/08/03 08:01 AM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
Smoky was a mutation found in ADOL Line 0. This is a non inbred line that does not have any intact avian leukosis subgroup E retrovirus in their genomes. It is a White Leghorn line derived from a mix of commercial sources. It is segregating blue, and recessive mottling as well as having birchin and sex-linked barring and silver.

I told Whiting how to deal with the blue. It messes up identification of the birds with Smoky. The gray feathers of Smoky can't be distinguished from the gray feathers of blue. Both have rounded off melanosomes instead of rod shaped.

It would be best to cross the birds to a black line and note the chick down types. Smoky is dominant on chick down like blue you get gray chick down, but the juvenile and adult feathers come in black instead of gray. So you throw away the chicks that stay gray because they have blue and you keep the gray chicks that turn black. If you cross these black birds together you will get 3/4 gray chicks with 1/4 gray chicks that stay gray and are pure smoky. If you are unlucky enough to get a bird that is BlBl you will have to make a backcross to the black line to segregate blue from Smoky.

Smoky can be a true breeding gray. With red modifiers it can be a true breeding chocolate milk color. So it would be better for these color patterns than Dun is. It should also make a true breeding blue red possible.

The only problem with Smoky is that if you believe in breed preservation these color types will become obsolete using the old Blue and Dun genes that do not breed true, so I don't really advocate widespread distrubution, but you can't stop progress. Once it becomes established the old breeds will be in the minority because not very many backyard breeders are going to pass up the chance to not throw away 1/2 of their progeny because they can't show them as that color. The breeders of blue reds will be very happy because Smoky doesn't dilute red. As an allele of dominant white it dilutes black more than red. Blue laced reds could breed true etc. I guess it isn't a current worry because it will probably take 20 to 30 years before it becomes a problem. By that time they may have two standards and you will have to tell the judge the genotype of your birds with a DNA certificate of authenticity to determine what category they are in. wink

I have a picture of the Smoky gray (ISIS) on a Black Australorp background next to her heterozygous black sister (ISi+) if someone wants to post it, send your email address and I'll send the pic. Hackles and saddles of the males are darker gray like Andalusian blue.

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#53952 - 11/08/03 09:39 AM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I will post the picture for you, Ron. harrellsellers@hotmail.com.

What does the acronym "ADOL" mean and where can we get "smoky" birds?

I would like to make an addition to the online genetics pages. What is the gene symbol (Is (superscript "s"))? What are the characteristics? It is an allele of dominant white - the I/Is birds will still be white, I presume (?). What about the E/E i+/Is ? Is this a smoky bird? Smoky modifies black much more than red

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#53953 - 11/08/03 12:02 PM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi,

Thank you very much Rokimoto, both for the information and for the offer of the photo for posting. If you don't mind, I'd like to have a copy of the photo as well, even if Lee is the one to post it.
dan1087@earthlink.net

You've given me a few things to look at , I had no idea that the stock had so many other pattern and color genes in them. I guess there's more to what isn't said than what is said at times, lol. That would be an extremely difficult mix to work with if you just wanted "one gene". Although I will admit, the thought of being able to maintain a true breeding blue laced red fowl just struck a pleasure nerve, lol. Oo, my brain is all tingly. smile

Hey Lee, you sound as excited about this information as I am, he he.

Thanks again Rokimoto, you've given me some invaluable information to work with and I really appreciate it. I owe you big time on this one. wink

Regards,
Dan

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#53954 - 11/09/03 09:17 AM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dan, I haven't heard from Ron about this yet, but if he sends the photo(s) to me and I post them, you can download them (it) directly from the posted photo - you don't have to get Ron to email you another copy.

Our line of blue layers is segregating a number of prominent color schemes. White earlobes with Andalusian Blue is one. Sandra likes the white lobed, blue birds and it would be nice to have something besides Bl, which doesn't breed true, and lavender, which is often associated with poor feather quality, for the blue blues (blue laying Blue Leghorns)

Also, I maintain my family's online genetics pages. There will be interest in the 'smoky' gene and I will make a scientifically correct entry (as far as is possible at this time) to our gene tables. As of this writing, I am not aware of any peer-reviewed publication in the scientific literature discussing this 'smoky' gene. In this situation I am willing to rely on reputable 'word-of-mouth' but the standard of reliability has to be very high (particulary for "word-of-mouth" information).

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#53955 - 11/09/03 04:45 PM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Lee,

I hadn't considered just downloading the photo, thanks for the suggestion.

Yes, the smoky gene could make some real nice changes for blue poultry breeding. It would certainly save a bit of pen space for those who don't have room to keep blue and black birds in their flocks just to get the right blue color for showing.

I'm curious to see if it distributes the color evenly within the feathers or with a lightly flecked quality such as in Id dun and Bl blue fowl. The lacing on my dun sumatras isn't too bad but the granulated quality of the dun coloration is irritating. I'm hoping that this gets better as I keep back breeding to my black sumatras.

Ok Lee, are your blue egg laying- blue leghorns ever going to be offered to the public? Lol, I'm sure there are several interested buyers. wink

Dan

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#53956 - 11/09/03 06:47 PM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
I've got the photo in the lab. I'll send it to Leee on Monday. ADOL stands for Avian Disease and Oncology laboratory in East Lansing. Everyone can't ask for the birds. I don't think that that would be fair to Bill. Bill Payne maintains the Smoky line and he isn't obligated to send eggs to everyone that requests them. Serious breeders should be the contact people. I know that a couple of people have gotten eggs from Bill. One of them is Whiting. It would be nice if the eggs could go to someone that could help distribute the eggs and birds. The birds are reproduced by artificial insemination so unless Bill just happens to be reproducing the lines he would have to work up the males and start the inseminations to get fertile eggs.

I've been collaborating with a lab in Sweden and we have a draft of a paper in which the smoky allele is designated Is. Superscript capital S. Our Poster at the Plant Animal Genome meeting had it as I^Sm. We list it as a dominant allele because we can detect it in I ISm heterozygotes. It is a strange allele. It is dominant to dominant white in both chick down and adult plumage, but it is recessive to the i+ allele in adult plumage, but not in the chick down. This is a useful quirk because you can track the recessive allele in backcrosses by noting the down color even if the adults do not express smoky the chicks are still gray. It should be fairly easy to introgress the allele into the various stocks.

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#53957 - 11/10/03 08:40 AM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good morning Rokimoto,

Would these leghorns be artificially inseminated for logistical reasons or is there another reason for using this technique? It seems it would be more labor intensive this way.

I'm also curious to know what happens with the stocks that your group works with when your research with them is finished. Do they get dispersed or are they just discontinued?

Dan

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#53958 - 11/10/03 10:48 AM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
The birds are usually destroyed after a project.

They are artificially inseminated because they are in clean facilities and in individual cages. They can mate naturally. One problem that you might encounter is that these birds have no maternal antibodies to various common diseases. They have never seen litter and have been raised on wire their whole lives. When I moved some lines to Arkansas I had 40-60% mortality when the chicks got hit by everything that we had on this farm. Since the hens have never been exposed to common pathogens the chicks have no maternal antibodies and you will have to watch them carefully. Once you get a generation on the ground you don't have that problem anymore.

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#53959 - 11/10/03 01:55 PM Re: Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I had wondered if they would require being placed on new ground or maybe even in a new building. It's good to know that ahead of time.

Thanks again for all the information and assistance Rokimoto.

Regards,
Dan

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