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#81975 - 06/08/04 09:45 AM CREAM Light Brown Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
.As some of you know, I was so distraught that the ADBS would not accept the translation of the Holland Standard for this variety of Dutch Bantam (and the only breed in the U.S. that genetically has the variety) that I gave away or sold all my CLB and BCLB birds--after 16 years!

Then, the APA, not really understanding why the Club rejected the Holland Standard (and that of England, Norway, Germany) gave the ADBS another 2 years to look at the Standard. Encouraged, first by the surprise recreating some CLB through LB carriers (from Holland), and so encouraged that I located some old line CLB birds, not crossed with LBs for many years, if ever, I have reassembled a breeding flock of CLBs and again added a Blue Cream Light Brown male from the same lines.

The spring hatches from these birds have displayed some YELLOW headed, WHITE throated pullets, now 8 weeks old! There are more chicks from the same matings, just hatched and some that are 3 weeks old--which included more of the very promising CLBs.

For those who also feel that this color is the only one that makes the CLB female distinct from the LB female in more than just hackle color (and often not seeing the solid yellow head and white throat), some of these chicks will be available this fall for others to increase the numbers of exhibition Cream Light Brown Dutch. Some are already promised. Cockerels from these matings, will also be available (most of them are also already spoken for). There is encouragement from England and Holland for the correct color description and breeding--
Some days the sun shines brightly! CJR

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#81976 - 06/09/04 04:16 PM Re: CREAM Light Brown Dutch
Sarah M. Spotten Offline
Bantam

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 70
Loc: California
Hi Jean,
This is so great to hear! I'd hoped we wouldn't give up entirely on breeding true CLBs after the standard disappointment. Of course the CLB and BCLB are my personal favorite varieties, ever since I got my very first chickens from Mary. She didn't have a LB male to go with the trio so she sold me my first CLB, Charlie Brown--whom I still have at home, now 7 years old. Now I really can't wait until I can get back into chickens, because my first loyalty will be to these lovely cream Dutch. smile

~Sarah
_________________________
Sarah M. Spotten

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#81977 - 06/10/04 07:39 AM Re: CREAM Light Brown Dutch
Deb AZ Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 452
Loc: Arizona
Well Jean I find myself here, and I suppose we are picking up from our phone conversatin yesterday. This is much more affordable.

Let's pick up on our discussion of the crossings of CLB/LB and the results of those crossings. You had a particular name of that crossing and I had heard that mentioned many years ago.

It seems to me with the blending and combining of these two varieties one would meld with the other and certain distinguishing marks would become less distinguishable, for instanse the 'white throat' of the CLB.

I am curious and wondering if the crossings of CLB/LB is what set a presidence for the standard, those results are still evident in many lines I am sure. For those who crossed if the distinguishing mark was so noted then many would have throw aways. How much influence does this have I wonder.

Deb

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#81978 - 06/10/04 06:41 PM Re: CREAM Light Brown Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
Deb, The difference might be just "exhibitors" and "breeders". Exhibitors come in 1. "out to win", 2. to "exhibit their work in breeding", and 3. combinations of the two. 4. There is a fourth catagory---those that may never exhibit,but work hard to breed to a recognized standard.

The crossing of LB and CLB was recommended in material furnished to new ADBS members. In doing so, the offspring are all LB the first cross,(if the mate is not a carrier of igig), but after that, various degrees of CLB coloring are displayed, some of which can be used to breed better CLBs. These are called "Swavers", coined by Dr H Gankema, Geneticist and author, in Holland. Yellow, is the name of the game. And this variety, when well selected, is about as yellow as you can get in poultry! Very rarely will a female Swaver, have a yellow head,(and a white throat), although her hackle may be quite yellow, with good black striping. Her body feather color may be quite tan, like a LB female. She will have a row of darker brown feathers along the wing, where it joins the body. At a show, she may look just like a female LB, with just a lighter hackle. This is no reject bird, but does not meet the STANDARD of the Geelpatrijs (Cream Light Brown). Bred to a LB, she will produce all Light Browns. Bred to a Cream Light Brown, she will produce CLB, but of different color qualities. This is where selection must take place to stay with a Standard. In all likelihood, the male is also a Swaver. It is very hard to do if Swavers are continually bred without selection of the correct yellow features--and they just produce more generations of Swavers. They are CLBs, they have poor color.

Am not discussing the male CLB here, but he, too is very important. Will just mention that the totally YELLOW headed CLB male is the only one that should be used for breeding CLBs.

Other breeds beware. If you are lifting CLB from Swavers, you will not be getting a new variety that will remain CLB! It is recessive and easily covered partly or entirely by LB. This may be one reason that the CLB was not accepted by ABA (as yet). I hope they will wait until the correct standard is published and birds bred to that standard are seen in good numbers! It is going to happen! It will take several generations. I am optomistic that I again may have female CLBs of correct color--too small to tell. Will let you know by midsummer! And I will share them with those who believe that the CLB is DUTCH and should be bred to that Standard! Kind of exciting. CJR

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#81979 - 06/24/04 07:52 AM Re: CREAM Light Brown Dutch
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
CJR, I'm curious about the down colour of the CLB day-old chicks. Are they distinguishable from LB as day-old chicks? I'm wondering if the down is diluted by the Cream gene.

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#81980 - 06/24/04 08:21 AM Re: CREAM Light Brown Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
Kazjaps, For years, I bred the CLB just like most did, mainly CLBxCLB, but these birds all came from LBs that carried the recessive ig. The effect of the LB is "attached" and very hard to remove. Day old chicks looked like LB, just had tiny flecks of cream on tips of what would be the hackle down. You could not tell the variety for sure, until the first hackle feathers appeared, about 3-4 weeks. Chicks from parents that had LB crosses in the past, were sometimes still questionable at 3 months. This is what will happen continually, unless breeding to a standard is followed.

Because of the size of our country and the distance between breeders, few get to see day old chicks of any one else's flock. And communication sometimes has been undefinitive.

Now, this year, I have made a determined effort to reproduce the correct female color--and after collecting several birds from old lines, for the first time in years, have had chicks hatch that had blonde down. They also had wider white stripes on the back and a softer brown on the chipmunk stripes. At 2 1/2 weeks, the down that is showing is still blonde on head and breast--will be changing very soon. One pullet produced these. Another pullet produced similar chicks, less blond, and greyish down on the head--almost like Silver chicks. These chicks are different from the usual CLBs. I had only several like this 15 years ago. Pullets were poor layers, eggs not fertile, died of Marek's and \produced no chicks. So I never really was able to get away from the carried LB influence. Several lovely males produced good males, but none of the correct females, some very nice, but not distinctly CLB to the Holland Standard.

Now, I am hatching a number that I will share with those who will breed to the Dutch Standard, as well as they can. This is the breeding that could transfer to other breeds, who admire the color. It will not be very successful otherwise.

Will try to get some pictures of these 2 /1/2 week old chicks, and will make an effort to photograph the next new hatchlings-- maybe later this summer. CJR

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#81981 - 06/24/04 11:55 PM Re: CREAM Light Brown Dutch
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
Thank you CJR for the answer.

I noticed in "Poultry Breeding & Genetics" that it was mentioned the Cream gene did not dilute the down colour in wild type chicks (ie e+, like CLB variety). But I also noticed in an old copy of the British Poultry Standards that the Cream Legbar chicks had a down described as similar to Silver Legbars. I don't think this has to do with the sex-linked barring gene in the Legbars, as the Gold Legbar pullet chicks are a brown ground colour, yet the Silver & Cream Legbar pullet chicks are to be similar ground colour to silver.
So I don't know why there is a discrepancy in chick down description.

The pale lemon Millefleur chickens (in d'Uccles) that I am getting, are very pale as day-olds, similar to Silver Millefleur. So I am trying to work out what gold diluter(s) I have.

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