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#83110 - 03/29/07 03:29 PM Any idea why?
Smoky73 Offline
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Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 697
Loc: Colorado
I hatched out several BCLB's last year. I kept back 2 BCLB cockerels. Well, while one has the correct color all over.
The other though, on his wing color, the part that is supposed to be Orange, is not, it is the same color as his saddle and hackle feathers. I saw a picture of a bird today on a site, I think Eggbid, it was for a blue birchen maran and it looked just like my Dutch cockerels coloring, to a T!
Here is a picture of the blue birchen on eggbid.
http://www.eggbid.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=1174860919
I will post a picture of the Dutch tonight.

Any idea how I ended up with this? It was a mate for sure between a CLB cockerel and a BCLB hen, last year. I will also post a pic of the other BCLB cockerel I have.
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#83111 - 03/29/07 08:20 PM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
Cara, Am anxious to see both your BCLBs. You know, since I have had the Mille Fleurs, Gingers and Blue Gingers, Buff and Blue Buff Columbians, I have been trying to learn more of the genetics beyond "simple" crosses (LBxBLB etc.). I do not have the sure answer for your bird, but in the years that we have been breeding BCLBs, there have been variations in color and pattern, (under the male hackle can be some interesting pattern and color) that have not been serious enough to call to attention. Now that so many more are being bred and a very small genes pool, really, we may see more expressions of genes I never heard of until the last couple of years! BCLB is a recessive of the recessive (CLB)and with them, some breeders are breeding them together. This can express genes we have not seen before. Di (dilute) is one that comes to mind, never see it described as a gene, in the older genetics books, and I do not really know how it works, but its effect is to soften, or even remove colors. So???? Something is being shown as dominant over the recessive Blue/Cream in that bird, that is not CLB. Am swamped right now, but it will be on my mind to see what I can find in the new Reeder book. Birchen isn't a classic Dutch variety, but is now bred in small experimental numbers in Holland. Blue Birchen and Gold (or Red) Birchen is showing up over there, also. NO OEGB were used to make it! It will be Dutch! It is harder to breed recessive varieties, as they are harder to stablize the genes, especially blue. For Show, it will always mean choosing the most "correct" birds. For breeding, there may be a good use for variants?? CJR

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#83112 - 03/29/07 08:21 PM Re: Any idea why?
Smoky73 Offline
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Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 697
Loc: Colorado
Here is the pictures of the two cockerels

First is the off color boy...


Then his sibling
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#83113 - 03/29/07 11:38 PM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
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Cara, Pure guess, but it looks like he carries the Di (dilute)gene. His blue is slightly lighter--in the picture, also. But Blue has its own way of expression. I have had BCLB cocks with that color (and kind of a patterned feather), but it was hidden under the hackle and the back and shoulder were orange.

I really like his small comb, although I expect it will become larger as Spring comes along--and he is more mature. He has a very nice earlobe!

Our judges do not know some of the finer points that are sought by breeders of Dutch in Holland. On the bird at the top of the picture, see the dark brown line at the lower edge of his orange back and the brown line at the top of the wing "triangle"? Not a good thing. It is on some of our Blue Light Browns, also. But our judges in the U.S. do not know anything about that. It is just something to work on in breeding, not a DQ or anything that serious, just a plus point, if the BLB or BCLB does not have it!

CJR
CJR

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#83114 - 03/30/07 03:29 AM Re: Any idea why?
Joachim Dippold Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1823
Loc: Austria
Hello,

did I get this right, you mean the difference in the orange color on his shoulders/wings? I donīt know, but could this not be Ap/Ap in contrary to the bird infront being Ap/ap? Maybe the odd-looking bird has simply "lost" one dose of Ap? The bird from your link looks like ap/ap to me, though. Again, just a guess...

Best greetings,

Joachim

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#83115 - 03/30/07 07:29 AM Re: Any idea why?
Smoky73 Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 697
Loc: Colorado
It was certainly a shock when I noticed it the other day as when thye were young, I THOUGHT they were both the same color.
I have noticed that after molt the BCLB females, well, my BCLB females anyway, change dramatically in coloring. I don't think that I have one BCLB hen that I could show anymore. When they have been molting, afterwards, the hens are usually two toned, with some really dark feathers and some really light feathers.You can kinda see what I mean in the hen on the right side of the one picture, though some are more dramatic than that.
I do think that the males tails seem to be starting to curve well.
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#83116 - 03/30/07 08:56 AM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
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Loc: Montana
This is the story of the Blue Light Brown and Blue Cream Light Brown Dutch, females especially. Blue is very unstable. Sometimes the pullet will look great when in first adult and mature plumage. After that--you know what can happen. It CAN change a bit after each molt. The BLB hen that I kept the longest, changed every molt, usually the solid dark blue feathers on the body, here and there, until she was about 5 or 6 years old, then she kept an almost perfect feather color until she died at age 10. BCLB females are the same. The one I wanted to get to Indianapolis, and was a lovely color--has partially molted and is now a little mottled blue. Her feathers are not tan with blue peppering, but most are blue with blue peppering. She is still a breeding bird, but would not want to show her. (She may, however, be at Great Falls Show, as that is the only way I can mail her on to a new home.)
Blue is beautiful, but difficult to have in correct feather color at any given show time! (In Holland, there are few FEMALE BLB birds at any show, but many raise them. Reason: not correct feather color at show time!) Blue is not easy! CJR

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#83117 - 03/30/07 09:03 AM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
Joachim, You are probably correct in that it may be Ap, and not Di. We are pretty elementary in genetics study of our Dutch in the U.S. Even the basic variety, Light Brown (Patrijs) has not been studied by breeders here, as it is "easy" with good bloodlines and few surprises. There are, however, many genetic variations in that Wild Type, as it is commonly called. Thanks for the input. CJR

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#83118 - 03/30/07 09:33 AM Re: Any idea why?
Joachim Dippold Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1823
Loc: Austria
Youīre welcome Jean!

Yep, the most confusing variety seems to be wildtype, I think the stippled one is called wildtype and the pencilled/laced one partridge. Hehehe, "few surprises" is well said, cool! I think it could also be a combination of Ap and Di, because of the "light" hue of orange. But as you know I only can guess, Iīm no expert. Di is on our "try-to-understand"-list this year;-)

Smoky: Funny, me too noticed the female looking "weird" for a "clean" silver, I think the ones "more dramatic" in oragne/reddish/golden/brownish hue of color could be Ap/Ap and the ones "less dramatic" could be Ap/ap. Again, just a guess from a Rookie, no proof or anything.

Best greetings,

Joachim

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#83119 - 03/30/07 12:38 PM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
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Loc: Montana
Joachim, The female is also a Blue Cream Light Brown: (e+e+Blbligig) We have been willing to go with that shortened code, but I know there are many other factors that we have not even tried to identify, much less test breed for! (for instance, one could ad ss--is that right for "not Silver"? The Cream birds have no Silver S genes. Cannot make a Silver from them as correctly bred. These are genetically different from the Goldens (Roodgechouderd
Zilverpatrijs) and breed true, whereas the Goldens do not. Goldens require Silver and Light Brown, and segregate according to which variety is the male.
I am only now doing excercises in genetics, crossing within the DUTCH only, since I have the Mille Fleurs and had to learn SOMETHING about their background. Kazjaps encouraged me to slip the Buff Columbians out from their Mille Fleur background,--not too hard, and I was able to add the Blue to both the Mille Fleurs and the Buff Columbian. There will be "surprises" in these crosses in the future, I am certain, but the proper colored ones will be the major produce. After more than 20 years with the "easier" ones, life becomes stimulating with new usable information!! CJR

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#83120 - 03/30/07 03:49 PM Re: Any idea why?
Joachim Dippold Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1823
Loc: Austria
Hello Jean,

Yep, I think both, either S/s and/or Ap, can lead to a "not clean" silver. I think this "Roodgechouderd" is the common name for "Ap", in German there are Dark Brahmas carrying Ap (and some also Bl) and they are called "mit Orangerücken", a horrible term meaning "orangeback". LOL! Rotgeschultert/Redshouldered would sound better to me, eitheway this is cool;-) I think "Roodgechouderd Zilverpatrijs" means just the same, Zilverpatrijs = Silverpartridge = Dark and there you are: "Silberwildfarbig mit Orangerücken" = "Dark with orangeback". Germans... LOL!

I hope you will enjoy the surprises, makes it all more, c'est le truc, "interesting", right?

Best greetings,

Joachim

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#83121 - 03/30/07 05:35 PM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
Reeders book explained the
Ap in Silvers (Zilverpatrijs). Gankema just called it an "attachment". I don't know if he was keeping his book really simple--or, at the time he published the book, had not learned about Ap as a gene (when "attached" to Silver, it ruins the Black and White bird unacceptably, by "attaching" rust or color to the back or wing bows of the males) It is almost impossible to breed out, once introduced. If you raise Silvers for Show-- NEVER breed Light Brown and Silver--not even once! CJR

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#83122 - 03/30/07 07:36 PM Re: Any idea why?
Kristi Offline
Chicken

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 101
Loc: California
All this genetics is too much for me! But, Cara, I agree that the BCLB and BLB females are very unpredictable when they moult. I had several that were good color as pullets and then more blue feathering then the tan feathering (with blue peppering) they had as pullets
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#83123 - 03/30/07 07:47 PM Re: Any idea why?
Anonymous
Unregistered


My little rooster has just the same coloring and markings as your picture Smoky. He is just 6 months old.

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#83124 - 03/31/07 12:55 AM Re: Any idea why?
Joachim Dippold Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1823
Loc: Austria
Hello Jean,

You siad itīs almost impossible to breed out, interesting. I wonder why? Maybe because it shows relativly late in feathering and therefore many breeders donīt see in their chicks when selecting? Maybe because it mimiks S/s (impure silver, split for silver) and therefore is difficult to differentiate? Eitherway I think Ap makes for many "weird" colors that would not be possible without it.

Gotty run, best greetings,

Joachim

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#83125 - 03/31/07 04:21 AM Re: Any idea why?
L. Haggarty Offline
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
I'm fascinated by all the genetics, and envious of your ability Jean to tease out all these wonderful colors. Please keep at it! We need such expertise and experimenting.
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www.pathfindersfarm.com

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#83126 - 03/31/07 08:36 AM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
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Loc: Montana
Joachim, This is doubtless why Dr. Gankema did not name the gene, but called it an "attachment". Perhaps it does not behave that way with other than Silver, but I suspect it does. Jeffrey (American Old English Game Bantams), had not discovered some of the genes and gene influence, but gave us a great foundation. Has the location of the Ap gene been posted? CJR

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#83127 - 03/31/07 03:54 PM Re: Any idea why?
Joachim Dippold Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1823
Loc: Austria
Hello Jean,

I donīt know if the location of the Ap gene has been found out. There are threads about the location of certain genes every now and then, even though I donīt understand them I read them. But I canīt remember more than that Dr. Ron has something to do with those "things" and several other experts are involved, also. Canīt recal more details, I have a very bad memory, sorry;-)

Best greetings,

Joachim

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#83128 - 03/31/07 06:18 PM Re: Any idea why?
Smoky73 Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 697
Loc: Colorado
I keep all the BCLB pullets even though they look like that. I try to ignore the fact they look weird just because I know the genetics of them, they come from good lines. I just won't be showing them anymore. But, they make awesome babies!!!
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http://www.silverpulletpoultry.net

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#83129 - 03/31/07 08:41 PM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
If they are good type, it is the best, to keep them, as bred to good CLB males, they have a chance of producing GOOD BCLB males and females. Just having a female the right color at Show time is always questionable. When one comes along and holds the right tan with blue peppering there may be some genetic success that I do not understand (and I don't think any geneticist does, either--YET--) and it doesn't bother me!

Did the BCLB pullet, now hen, ever produce for you Cara? I have never hatched from her BCLB Splash sister. She has never been a particularly good layer, but is laying now, mated with my really nice Splash cock--and I hope to set some eggs to hatch after the Great Falls Show. She is very "white" with almost no spots, small, pale salmon breast, and the cock is mostly white, also, nice red back. Several people want some, and I need another female in the Schuurman line (my 11 year old BCLB Splash hen--mother of your BCLB and my Splash hen). Old 29R may not be with me too much longer, laid several soft shelled eggs earlier, but looks spry and active. If one breaks inside--that will be her end! CJR

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#83130 - 04/02/07 11:02 AM Re: Any idea why?
Smoky73 Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 697
Loc: Colorado
Jean, Some of the ones I hatched last year could be hers as I kept all the females in the pen together last year. This year however, I am only setting one BCLB and one CLB females and 2 LB females with roosters. She is not one of them however this time around. Space is always an issue and birds have to be placed in a extended show cage to pair up, equal to 2 show cage spaces.
Next year, (knock on wood) we will be having a 30x60 foot building put in, which a 30x30 section of it will be used for winter bird quarters. This will allow me to hatch everything I want, and to keep the birds in a heated (so the waterers dont freeze) building for winter though it may not be actually in time for breeding season in spring. We will still have to insulate and build the actual 6x12 pens (10 of them)before we can put birds in there.
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Cara Smith
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#83131 - 04/02/07 12:10 PM Re: Any idea why?
CJR Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/02
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Space is the reason I have not hatched from the BCLB Splash hen, also--!

Envy your start with new buildings--you will surely enjoy keeping your birds with new housing!! Mine are very convenient, but I have had to limit numbers to fit! Now, the numbers are going DOWN,DOWN, and I am having a hard time facing it! But there will be few "next generation"--always the "best yet?" birds from time to time. And if I have few birds to leave at home, I can maybe attend some shows in different parts of the country.

CJR

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