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#83436 - 03/06/06 09:41 PM A Can of worms
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
Guess I`m just bored. ( SP ) This Is just something I have wondered about. How many of you bought birds from good breeders , that you thought were good breeders and didn`t like the birds ? And then found out that maybe those birds bred like you were told they would if you bred them the way the person you bought them from said they would produse some nice chicks. And they did. Then you are on your own. So did you improve those birds ? Or did you cry not good birds and they never prodused. Honest true breeders are rare. And when you find one learn from them. It takes years to learn how to breed anything worth while. Yes you can buy the best and breed them. Hate to tell you , best bred to best doesn`t work. Thats why a breeder learns how to " Blend " birds to make them better than both parents. Some do. Some do not. Just me. Rog
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#83437 - 03/06/06 10:52 PM Re: A Can of worms
Angela Stanley Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Ah Rog, good "breeders" are few and far between, you know that! To many of those who claim to be breeders, are sporting the best birds that "money can buy".
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Angela Stanley

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#83438 - 03/07/06 09:23 AM Re: A Can of worms
Kristi Offline
Chicken

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 101
Loc: California
Rog--I wholeheartedly agree with you. I know that when I listened to the breeders who got me started in the two breeds I show, the results worked. I experienced this EVEN when the individual birds didn't measure up to what one would call BEST for the breed. When I did what I was told to do by the breeders, it worked. And worked well. So I really tried hard to learn from them, follow their advice, and practice it myself when I was picking out my birds to breed. (Of course my results don't always measure up, but sometimes they do and that's REAL NICE when that happens). It seems that breeding is a real art and it really helps to pay attention to what the long time successful breeders say, since they seem to be artists.

And, I know that my breeding birds I end up keeping and breeding aren't always the nicest birds of the bunch either. It REALLY does matter who your pair each bird up with.

Here's to us all becoming ARTISTS. smile
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KvG

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#83439 - 03/07/06 04:38 PM Re: A Can of worms
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
When I bought my 1st good birds, I bought them from a judge who has a life of experience. he came to my pens and assisted me in choosing the keepers and assisted in brood pen makeup. Before he would come I banded what I thought was better and made my breed plans, about 1/2 the birds I had chosen to keep he tossed in the barrel, and kinda tore into my breeding plans, not too bad really. This was all a huge help to me and helped me look at the small details. I had the feel down pretty good from breeding games for several years. I was doing well enuff they would take my best birds for show and breeding.
I know of a couple people who bought eggs from a premier Hamburg breeder, the eggs hatched and the buyer complained cause they had faults?? No kidding! Now if they were interested, they could contact the breeder and he might suggest how to best breed those youngsters, but that might be work! Far easier to bitch and whine. Some breeds/patterns take a whole lot of selection to get proper typed birds, evem from the best breeders.

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#83440 - 03/08/06 05:46 AM Re: A Can of worms
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello All;

Good subject we have going here.

A true breeder is more than someone that sells “good” birds…or supposed “good” birds. A true breeder takes the time to explain the history of their breeding program and assists you in what you want to accomplish.

I know it is very difficult for the beginner to grasp all this information; and the beginner may still sway from those years of experience of the breeder to opt for instant results today. As we all know, from past experiences ourselves, this will never happen and we have all been caught in this trap.

I think the most important thing for any breeder, young or old, new or seasoned is to value what the seller is telling you. We sometimes are inflicted with tunnel vision and can only see the birds as they are today…right in front of us…with no regard to what breeding took place for those particular birds to be here today.

I have had my share of show champions, and like Rog stated, breeding a winner to a winner does not guarantee any exceptional birds. Of course, your chances are greater at this point, but nothing is guaranteed.

I have always prided myself on having a good reputation as a breeder, and it is a difficult pill to swallow when you sell birds to individuals and they are not pleased with the breeding results. Then the accusations start flying, gossip spreads and many a good breeder has had their reputation ruined from such chatter. Breeding has to involve selective breeding and years of experiences WITHOUT introducing other people’s bloodlines into your flock. My best show winners have been from birds that most would cull just by looking at them, but the genetics are there and they have proven over and over again to be excellent breeders, so your point of a show bird not necessarily making a good breeder itself is very accurate.

There have been years when I have hatched over 500 Dutch bantams, and of those 500 birds, maybe, just maybe I kept 50 of them for breeders and sale birds. So, as you can see, it takes a lot of experience, record keeping and more than anything a good eye for what is good and what is bad.

Ric

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#83441 - 03/08/06 10:15 PM Re: A Can of worms
Kristi Offline
Chicken

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 101
Loc: California
Good comments, Ric.

My very best producing male happens to be one of the very first 6 Dutch I purchased. I didn't actually use him as a breeder the first year, but in the end did hatch two chicks of his the first year even though I hadn't intended to breed him that first year. One of those two chicks was chosen as Reserve SCCL at his very first show.

I never showed this male who is my best producer. At one point--before I was smart enough to realize it is often best to keep the producers of good birds and use THEM to breed more rather than using their winning offspring as breeders--I tried to sell him to someone in a breeding pair. She didn't like the way he looked--he had not moulted well that year and his hackle and saddle looked odd. So she picked out a different male and chose him instead as being the one she wanted to match up with the female I was selling to her. She chose this other bird--a young male in nice condition but NOT as nice a bird as the older Producer. I told her I thought the older Producer was a better bird to use in the pair, but that wasn't her choice because he didn't look as good.

Boy am I GLAD this male didn't get sold because of his looks, as he has now produced several VERY nice birds for me and he is NOT for sale (for at least a few more years anyway).
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#83442 - 03/10/06 09:24 PM Re: A Can of worms
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
I breed my birds the way I have bred my horses for 45 years. If I find a cock that breeds better chicks than the mothers and a hen that breeds better chicks than the cock , I put them togeather. And hope for the best. It does work most of the time. The but is , you have to breed both birds enough to know what each bird produses. Thats what breeders do. Rog
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#83443 - 03/11/06 10:51 AM Re: A Can of worms
Deb AZ Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 09/26/03
Posts: 452
Loc: Arizona
Think Rog said a mouthful, you have to breed enough, whether it be breeding over time or in numbers to see results from matings.
I tend to look at each fowl as an individual with specific qualities when mated with another with traits I desire will possibly produce something workable. Since there is no perfect bird.
I also think the show room gives a false sence of security for many seeking fowl. That because the fowl has placed so well it MUST be a breeder producing more of the same. I always tell people the "genes are there" but you must know the breed in order to seek and produce the traits requiered for the breed. Learning the breed and the qualities pertaining to the breed is essential. Then you can begin to learn just how to breed those qualities.
I sure many have bought fowl over the years to have suprises or disapointments with the results. I always look at it a couple ways, is it workable or detremental. If it is detremental it's out. My consideration with the white Dutch. Great hatch but one problem they all had yellow legs and leghorn tails. I understood what the breeder had done but I also know that it would be alot of breeding requiered to attempt to remove those genes and still they would show their ugly head periodically. I could also say the same for many bantam Polish breeders. Putting standard on bantam to increase production or crest size, with the results inbetween neither bantam nor standard in type. The breeding choices we make sometimes can be detremental to a specific line and other times if done correctly can improve a line. but again one must know the breed and how to breed.
Good breeders and good fowl are two seperate issues, I have seen good fowl just made a mess of and vise versa workable fowl go on to produce excellent fowl. but it depends upon the hands they are in.

Deb

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#83444 - 03/16/06 10:09 AM Re: A Can of worms
Angela Stanley Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Missouri
Hey Rog...
What's the bloodline on that white horse with the big ears....LOL
I actually turned down a pair of Rog's birds for one of my 4-H kids....You may wonder what I was thinking, but in a nutshell, I hate to see good birds go to waste. I've been threatening to take his birds to the shows myself. Just so that they can be seen. Breeding at it's finest!
I don't even "do" Dutch!
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