Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#84273 - 08/13/05 09:01 AM Black "leaking" into blue
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
Hi all,

I am working with BLBs and BCLBs, and had a question for you more experienced with these colors. I have one cockerel who has what I call black “leaking” into a couple of his blue feathers. It’s not a lot, just a few small patches (several of which are really specks.) The questions are:

- Is this common?
- How to prevent?
- Will it change after his first molt?
- Does it make him unusable as a breeding or showing bird, all other things being equal?

The draft of the Standard for BCLB posted on the Coop doesn’t show defects, so I am unsure how much this is a problem. Would it be consistent with the general Standard for Andalusian Blue, I assume?

Thanks for any insight you can give me,
_________________________
Laura Haggarty
www.pathfindersfarm.com

Top
#84274 - 08/13/05 11:34 PM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
Laura If you can post some pictures of what you are talking about. The black you are talking about may just be a dark blue. What feathers on the bird is it showing up on ? You say specks . Tail feathers ? Wing feathers ? How old is the bird ? Has it gone threw a molt ? Lots of unknows here. The birds breeding ? The hens breeding you used. The cocks breeding you used ? There is not a simple answer. Thats why it takes several years to figure out how to breed Dutch. Even when you start with really good birds. And thats the fun part. Taking good birds and breeding better ones. Not simple. And not easy. But worth the effort. Great breeders know there own birds. But after a couple generations it`s up to you to breed better ones. Just me. Rog
_________________________
Fast Trucks , Fast Horses , Fast Women and Slow Chickens

Top
#84275 - 08/14/05 12:50 PM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8508
Loc: Montana
Roger has stated some good facts about breeding any Dutch for exhibition. Your experience is your best teacher. What works for one breeder may not give you what you expect.

Poultry color breeding is not an exact science. Our birds have not read the Genetics books.

The Blbl is difficult, always difficult, at best. And the "blue" coloring--non poultry people call it gray--is so attractive that most everyone wants to raise some, if not for exhibition, it is really a sure pleasure.

Your first question: is it common? A. Only if it happens with a lot of your BLBs. Question 2, How to prevent (have to be curt with this answer--SORRY). A. Don't breed BLB--it is not totally preventable. Question 3. Will it change after his first molt? A. BLBs may change some plumage coloring after every molt, with most birds, male or female. Last question: There is no "equal", so it is your own judgement call. Sorry to be so abrupt in these answers, but at first, there was no selection for exhibition, with BLBs in the U.S. I have mentioned many times, that few are exhibited in Holland, although they have been bred for generations. Why? Because exhibition BLBs that conform to standard, are not easily bred, nor easy to have in correct color or plumage at any given time of a show. Even with most breeders in Holland, raising just a few birds of any variety, those with best scores on their birds at the shows, did not bring birds to the shows, that are not competative--they are left at home. So one does not see many that are not right up to standards. Those that have low scores or dq, are usually, like in the U.S., new breeders, who just want badly to exhibit their birds. (And sometimes we all get lucky with that choice!) Over here, judging is still more uneven--so birds not up to standard BLB coloring may win the BB. . .It is always the judges call!

But do keep breeding BLBs and keep selecting your best birds at the time to enter the shows! CJR

Top
#84276 - 08/15/05 05:48 AM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
The bird in question is not a BLB, but a BCLB. He was born in February of this year. I will include a photo of him so you can see what I mean; the black coming through is on his tail feathers. Note that he is missing both his major sickle feathers - the heat here is so bad that even with fans on and ice in the water in the pen, several males have dropped sickles (temps have been repeatedly as high as 107, and we've been in drought conditions for the last six weeks.)



Thanks,
_________________________
Laura Haggarty
www.pathfindersfarm.com

Top
#84277 - 08/15/05 08:50 AM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8508
Loc: Montana
Laura, I know that you have not yet hatched many generations of any line of Dutch. So, you really need to see a number of cockerels in the same hatch combinations to answer some questions. We get so little information in questions posted here, that every answer is only from very limited facts--you said BLB or BCLB, but did not say which. Makes a difference. Do you have full brothers? While I would never show a bird with such uneven Blue coloring, if he is bred to different CLB females, there might be much better blue coloring in some of the offspring. This is where your own skills come in. Which to keep, which to work with the next generation? Which females to breed back or which to use with a different male? Your best offspring may come from birds you would not exhibit. Your BB, even Best in Show bird may produce nothing worth showing when bred with your best females! It is experience with your individual birds that counts. If you have the parents of this bird--I would not breed them together again unless you also have a much better colored BCLB brother to this bird. You cannot know the parents of your breeding birds if you purchased them--and it will be your own combinations that will count.

It is not necessary to list defects on a standard. You already have a standard for the Shape of the bird. If then if the color standard states that the body is blue, then a black, white, or red feather in the wrong place is a defect, doesn't have to be stated (impossible to state every possible defect). It is always the judge's call on what a bird may show to him, the day of the show, and whether he/she sees it as something to take off points.

If we had a scoring system of judging, as in The Netherlands, (checked on a list right on the bird's cage card!--so YOU KNOW), this bird would lose score on his color (uneven), comb, length of legs (a little short), wing carriage, (not curving around in back), back is red instead of orange, and yet he might have a passing score equal to more than half of the birds exhibited at any one show in Holland. He would have good scores on shape of the back, balance, expression and eye.
Here in the U.S., it would depend entirely upon the judge. He could be BB or not placed at all, depending upon the competition. I have seen the most untypical BLB Dutch, according to our standards, placed BB and SCCL in a large competition --completely up to the judge!

And remember, this is a picture, always quite different from the actual moving birds! Even in this picture, his TYPE is quite good and that is the basis of our selection of breeding birds. He is young and his back may become orange as he matures--another year. This is "look and learn" year for you with new birds, new varieties--and I had
Dutch for almost 8 years (pretty birds, just not up to Standard, and I was learning about color breeding) before I had one I would exhibit, and my first show, a Western National, the LB cockerel was BV and RB in a large competition. (Yes, I sold him there, I do not bring birds home from a show--and I kept his brother). Patience and progress go hand in hand. I am still being patient--4 years with Mille Fleur Dutch, still none to exhibit--but stimulating, enjoyable and lovely birds--making a little progress, learning a lot! (and sorted out some of their genes, into Ginger Red, Ginger Blue, Ginger Creams and Buff Columbian, Blue Buff Columbians--ALL DUTCH, no outcrossing to other breed.) CJR

My guess is that the "black" spotting on the tail feather is a stress response (stress at the time the feather was being formed)--and another guess is that after he molts-without stress, the spots will not be on the new feathers.

Top
#84278 - 08/15/05 09:51 AM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
Smoky73 Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 697
Loc: Colorado
Even though I personally wouldnt breed from him if he was mine, I think his coloring is very pretty. smile
_________________________
Cara Smith
http://www.silverpulletpoultry.net

Top
#84279 - 08/15/05 10:18 AM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
>> Do you have full brothers?

No, his dam was culled for other reasons which are not germane to this discussion.

>> his TYPE is quite good and that is the basis of our selection of breeding birds.

Good to hear. I had thought he needed work in just the areas you mentioned (comb, leg length, wing carriage) but it's always good to have someone else comment, rather than trusting my own judgement. Don't want to be "barn blind."

I like the lightness of his blue coloring, and of his hackles. His earlobes could be a wee bit better in shape, but the color is nice and opaque.

And I do like his overall type, but don't think I will breed him, nor show. I have a local woman who likes "backyard banties" and think I'll send him to her, she takes good care of them, but has absolutely no interest in ever showing. He does have a lovely temperment, which to me is also very important, and one of the things I count when looking at a bird with an eye to breeding them.

Thanks for your comments folks.
_________________________
Laura Haggarty
www.pathfindersfarm.com

Top
#84280 - 08/15/05 10:21 AM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8508
Loc: Montana
I do not breed from young cockerels, until they have matured or sometimes wait until they have gone through one molt. They must be very promising by 5-6 months, though, to be keepers. Some people can't wait to "see what he will produce" and use birds for breeding before they are a year old. It is rather generally believed (most breeds of fowl) that a cockerel at 6 months was hitting his "glory" plumage, but I have learned over the years, that the best and lasting lines of Dutch males will not even have their main sickles fully in before about a year--or more of age. Their first show would be as a cock! Pullets on the other hand, may be in full plumage at 5-6 months. But then, if shown, it interrupts their laying (4 1/2 to 5 months) and that can be a very bad thing for their future production. So, it is a guessing game and a choosing game, for the birds that you would Show (and maybe sacrifice) for a big win!

We all have to decide for ourselves, what is best for the birds--best for us, and especially what is best for the Dutch as a BREED! CJR

Top
#84281 - 08/15/05 03:26 PM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
Smoky73 Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 697
Loc: Colorado
2 Pictures of CJR's BCLB cockerel, Thanks Smoky!

Laura, this cockerel (just over 4 months old here) is probably related to yours through the sire. Sire of this fellow, I am sure is a full brother to your BCLB cock, doubtless sire of your cockerel. The TYPE is the same, some color problems are the same, but the dams are totally different. It is for this reason, that birds that have TYPE that is hard to obtain, may be considered keeping for breeding and the offspring my bring forth the things that you seek.
This bird was spoken for at hatch. He was the only male in the hatch, and he has two sisters that are CLBs (keepers). I have sold his dam, but have his granddam--she is on my webpage, a classic CLB and a female Dutch that is in the pedigree of most of my GREAT Dutch offspring. I bought back her sister at 3 years of age and would never part with these two Dutch hens!!


Both of these pictures show his light blue plumage color, tail is actually the same color as the body--hard to get. His back is already turning orange like his sire. He has an extra brown line above his wing triangle--not desireable--his legs look short--not too short, but you can see he hates being caged and his legs are bent, so when he is standing up, they are perfect length. I have another picture of him showing the wings reaching back underneath the body. He is very young--and with maturity, I hope he will look even more like his sire--who is a GREAT BCLB. Sold him, also, as well as another BCLB full brother (I have a BCLB-Splash daughter and a BCLB daughter from the first brother) and will keep his CLb sisters--I will not be able to create another like this one. (or his CLB sisters). I hope this boy will be useful in creating some BCLBs that will be superior. It will depend upon the CLBs he is mated with.??? Wish I had more room--would have liked to keep him. He is too young to give a final assessment, but he is a very promising youngster-- and good hope to produce offspring for our qualifier of BCLB variety.
_________________________
Cara Smith
http://www.silverpulletpoultry.net

Top
#84282 - 08/16/05 07:23 AM Re: Black "leaking" into blue
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
Actually, the cock bird you are thinking of sired the following two birds, not the one shown above:




Sorry about the quality of the first photo, little bird didn't want his picture taken!

They are both from my 4/15 hatch, full siblings, same sire, same dam.
_________________________
Laura Haggarty
www.pathfindersfarm.com

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


Moderator:  Admin @ The Coop, CJR 
Who's Online
0 registered (), 51 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box