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#84468 - 05/10/08 08:40 AM "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8490
Loc: Montana
Perhaps everyone is not troubled by advertisement and sale of psuedo dutch. There have been "rare" Porcelain Dutch advertised recently. Pictures?,--- they have little resemblance to Dutch, are small, single comb and that is about all. Any Mille Fleur and Self Blue to make them, is closest in type to come from OEGB. Ear lobes are red. And it takes several generations, and a lot of selection, to make Porcelain, at all. I could find no pictures of Porcelain Dutch (in Europe, Mille Fleur is called Porselein) searching many websites with Dutch pictures--all countries. Thought ChickenBox (Belgium) had some, but could not locate any. The Belgians (d'Anvers and d'Uccles) have years of generations behind the Porcelain variety, and still there are always poor quality color produced and selection is always required. To trade on the DUTCH name is dishonest. Mixing varieties is always an excercise, lots to learn about genetics of color and pattern, hard enough within one breed, but when crossed with another breed, a multiplication of problems expresses. The bird is no longer Dutch. Perhaps,those who were in attendance at Crossroads Show, will remember a "noncolor" pullet that was sadly entered. Never was able to locate the owner, who did not join the Dutch group for discussion or sharing. The little bird was not representative of Dutch in any variety.

Mixing bantam breeds can throw a beautiful breed with good heritage, into chaos and turn back the progress toward a Standard--and reduce the value of Dutch. There may be exceptions??? These exceptions take YEARS of work. (these psuedo Porcelain "Dutch" sell for $20 a pair--not valued much as a rarity??)

Keep PRIDE and VALUE in DUTCH. Backyard bantams are always available, but Dutch are in demand as DUTCH......CJR

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#84469 - 05/11/08 09:15 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
Ah Mrs Jean. How well said. I must say that the hatchery Dutch birds are not Dutch. Period. They sell colors of Dutch that even the Dutch breeders do not have. Even the recognised varieties of Dutch birds they sell are not good Dutch. It`s called lets sell something new that we can. Do your homework. Learn what a good Dutch should look like. And it is sad that some folks buy those birds and think they have raised a rare Dutch bird of a different color. Then they sell them to others. And the beat goes on. Do research first. It`s out there on the internet. This is a LB cockerel I raised. Not great but a really nice bird. If your birds do not look like him you do not have decent Dutch.

Will attach several pictures, you can judge yourself, what parts are good/poor and what might be "perfect", and all can add comments or questions. CJR












Rog
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#84470 - 05/12/08 04:20 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
Rog,
Nice looking bird, but how about a critique for those of us who don't know much about Dutch. For example, is his body carriage right? Is there enough hackle/saddle striping for a light brown? Are the wings carried too low? Does he have the right number of points on the comb? You can probably think of other things where he is strong or not. Thanks!
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Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
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#84471 - 05/12/08 03:05 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
Bushman Lets see if CJR will critique him. I`m still learning too. Jean knows all the finer points to look for. This could turn into a good discusion if some folks will post pictures of their birds and let them be critiqued. I have to give Jean credit for all I have learned about what a proper Dutch should look like. There are several breeders now with proper Holland type Dutch. And you will find that most if not all of the better breeders birds will go back to Jean`s birds. They may be several generations removed now and that is a credit to those breeders that have carried on with the birds and still have good ones. The cockerel in the picture is a May hatch and the picture was taken when he was 8 months old. Rog
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#84472 - 05/14/08 06:54 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Richard in MA Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 332
Loc: Massachusetts
I would love to see online critiques. I cannot always get to the shows and even then, you can;t always get with a judge to question them. I try to look at as many pictures as possible and compare them to the standard but I find the standards hard to visualize by just using my imagination.

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#84473 - 05/15/08 11:09 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8490
Loc: Montana
A few pictures have been added for comparison--and I will add a few more as I have time to pull some out and transfer to Photobucket. CJR

scroll back to Rog's first post.....

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#84474 - 05/16/08 09:08 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8490
Loc: Montana
And now, Dutch Mille Fleur eggs were advertised on Eggbid--don't know if the pictures are still there.

Absolutely NOTHING DUTCH about the birds--talk about dishonesty!

CJR

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#84475 - 05/16/08 09:35 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
web page Good example of really bad so called Dutch. Not Dutch at all. Rog

The colors on this website are not Dutch varieties. The Silver Dickwing genes have been used with Mille Fleur (they are Silver Mille Fleurs, not Porcelains). And most certainly are OEGB crosses.

Here is a Blue Citroen Mille Fleur Dutch (not Porcelain, but looks like it. Genetically, this hen has NO Lavender, required for Porcelain, but has Citroen and a Blue Mille Fleur DUTCH mother, Mille Fleur DUTCH sire. But "Porcelain" is what the fake Dutch are claimed to be!


And here is a pair of Citroen Mille Fleur DUTCH a cockerel, 9 months old and a 2 year old hen. Citroen is the Cream gene ( igig, as in CLBs) It is a recessive and most of my Mille Fleurs carry it.


This Citroen Mille Fleur haan, is grandsire of the CitroenMille hen in the above picture. This was a display pen at the NoordShow, Zuidlaren, Holland. 2006.


CJR
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Fast Trucks , Fast Horses , Fast Women and Slow Chickens

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#84476 - 05/16/08 10:46 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Hahnsberg Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 156
Loc: Texas
These are plain and simply OE bantams, no? Red ear lobes, the tail, the carriage, and hard feathering?

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#84477 - 05/16/08 12:29 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
Maybe the advertiser is just ignorant and doesn't know what Dutch bantams should look like? If she is smart enough to use the internet, she should be smart enough to do a little research on her own birds. My guess is ignorant and lazy.
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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