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#84468 - 05/10/08 08:40 AM "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
Perhaps everyone is not troubled by advertisement and sale of psuedo dutch. There have been "rare" Porcelain Dutch advertised recently. Pictures?,--- they have little resemblance to Dutch, are small, single comb and that is about all. Any Mille Fleur and Self Blue to make them, is closest in type to come from OEGB. Ear lobes are red. And it takes several generations, and a lot of selection, to make Porcelain, at all. I could find no pictures of Porcelain Dutch (in Europe, Mille Fleur is called Porselein) searching many websites with Dutch pictures--all countries. Thought ChickenBox (Belgium) had some, but could not locate any. The Belgians (d'Anvers and d'Uccles) have years of generations behind the Porcelain variety, and still there are always poor quality color produced and selection is always required. To trade on the DUTCH name is dishonest. Mixing varieties is always an excercise, lots to learn about genetics of color and pattern, hard enough within one breed, but when crossed with another breed, a multiplication of problems expresses. The bird is no longer Dutch. Perhaps,those who were in attendance at Crossroads Show, will remember a "noncolor" pullet that was sadly entered. Never was able to locate the owner, who did not join the Dutch group for discussion or sharing. The little bird was not representative of Dutch in any variety.

Mixing bantam breeds can throw a beautiful breed with good heritage, into chaos and turn back the progress toward a Standard--and reduce the value of Dutch. There may be exceptions??? These exceptions take YEARS of work. (these psuedo Porcelain "Dutch" sell for $20 a pair--not valued much as a rarity??)

Keep PRIDE and VALUE in DUTCH. Backyard bantams are always available, but Dutch are in demand as DUTCH......CJR

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#84469 - 05/11/08 09:15 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
Ah Mrs Jean. How well said. I must say that the hatchery Dutch birds are not Dutch. Period. They sell colors of Dutch that even the Dutch breeders do not have. Even the recognised varieties of Dutch birds they sell are not good Dutch. It`s called lets sell something new that we can. Do your homework. Learn what a good Dutch should look like. And it is sad that some folks buy those birds and think they have raised a rare Dutch bird of a different color. Then they sell them to others. And the beat goes on. Do research first. It`s out there on the internet. This is a LB cockerel I raised. Not great but a really nice bird. If your birds do not look like him you do not have decent Dutch.

Will attach several pictures, you can judge yourself, what parts are good/poor and what might be "perfect", and all can add comments or questions. CJR












Rog
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#84470 - 05/12/08 04:20 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
Rog,
Nice looking bird, but how about a critique for those of us who don't know much about Dutch. For example, is his body carriage right? Is there enough hackle/saddle striping for a light brown? Are the wings carried too low? Does he have the right number of points on the comb? You can probably think of other things where he is strong or not. Thanks!
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#84471 - 05/12/08 03:05 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
Bushman Lets see if CJR will critique him. I`m still learning too. Jean knows all the finer points to look for. This could turn into a good discusion if some folks will post pictures of their birds and let them be critiqued. I have to give Jean credit for all I have learned about what a proper Dutch should look like. There are several breeders now with proper Holland type Dutch. And you will find that most if not all of the better breeders birds will go back to Jean`s birds. They may be several generations removed now and that is a credit to those breeders that have carried on with the birds and still have good ones. The cockerel in the picture is a May hatch and the picture was taken when he was 8 months old. Rog
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#84472 - 05/14/08 06:54 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Richard in MA Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 332
Loc: Massachusetts
I would love to see online critiques. I cannot always get to the shows and even then, you can;t always get with a judge to question them. I try to look at as many pictures as possible and compare them to the standard but I find the standards hard to visualize by just using my imagination.

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#84473 - 05/15/08 11:09 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
A few pictures have been added for comparison--and I will add a few more as I have time to pull some out and transfer to Photobucket. CJR

scroll back to Rog's first post.....

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#84474 - 05/16/08 09:08 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
And now, Dutch Mille Fleur eggs were advertised on Eggbid--don't know if the pictures are still there.

Absolutely NOTHING DUTCH about the birds--talk about dishonesty!

CJR

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#84475 - 05/16/08 09:35 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
web page Good example of really bad so called Dutch. Not Dutch at all. Rog

The colors on this website are not Dutch varieties. The Silver Dickwing genes have been used with Mille Fleur (they are Silver Mille Fleurs, not Porcelains). And most certainly are OEGB crosses.

Here is a Blue Citroen Mille Fleur Dutch (not Porcelain, but looks like it. Genetically, this hen has NO Lavender, required for Porcelain, but has Citroen and a Blue Mille Fleur DUTCH mother, Mille Fleur DUTCH sire. But "Porcelain" is what the fake Dutch are claimed to be!


And here is a pair of Citroen Mille Fleur DUTCH a cockerel, 9 months old and a 2 year old hen. Citroen is the Cream gene ( igig, as in CLBs) It is a recessive and most of my Mille Fleurs carry it.


This Citroen Mille Fleur haan, is grandsire of the CitroenMille hen in the above picture. This was a display pen at the NoordShow, Zuidlaren, Holland. 2006.


CJR
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#84476 - 05/16/08 10:46 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Hahnsberg Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 156
Loc: Texas
These are plain and simply OE bantams, no? Red ear lobes, the tail, the carriage, and hard feathering?

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#84477 - 05/16/08 12:29 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
Maybe the advertiser is just ignorant and doesn't know what Dutch bantams should look like? If she is smart enough to use the internet, she should be smart enough to do a little research on her own birds. My guess is ignorant and lazy.
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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#84478 - 05/16/08 04:26 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
No, well, maybe that, and a taking advantage of a chance to SELL. DUTCH Bantams SELL.

Actually, if you clicked on her flock, you will see that she may have some "Texas Hatchery" Dutch, that are mixed Dutch varieties and are obviously crossed with OEGB, that do have Mille Fleur, but the variety is not common, not easy to find in acceptable pattern! Her birds are not acceptable colors (varieties) in any bantam breed!

I am sorry for the people who buy first and then ask--and sorrier still, for the "backyard banties" that are mutts, without saleable value (although nothing wrong for backyard pets.) And it is still worse for those so called "Dutch", that occasionally appear at SHOWs, because their owners think they are "pretty"!

I am really depressed! CJR

!

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#84479 - 05/16/08 09:54 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
Added some DUTCH pictures in lieu of the "OEGB" or crossbred birds that were advertised as Dutch! See Roger's post with the web address of the pseudo Dutch! CJR

Mine do not sell for $20 a pair.

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#84480 - 05/17/08 07:13 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Richard in MA Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/07
Posts: 332
Loc: Massachusetts
It is pathetic and I have seen the same thing with sebrights. Someone was selling some goldens where the cocks had full hackles, saddles and even big sickle feathers in the tail. Unfortunately, people buy these birds/eggs. While I feel that ignorance is no excuse for a seller, I don't think it is one for a buyer either. You need to do your homework before you buy and then the problems should be obvious.

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#84481 - 05/19/08 07:14 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
Here's a photo that Neil Grassbaugh took of my LB cock bird last fall at the OH National. Feel free to critque. He's the sire of about half of the LB birds I hatched this year.

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www.pathfindersfarm.com

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#84482 - 05/19/08 07:22 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
Here's a Light Brown pullet:

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www.pathfindersfarm.com

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#84483 - 05/19/08 07:25 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
Here's one of my Blue Cream Light Brown cock birds. Let's see (besides Jean) who can point out a fault he has:

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Laura Haggarty
www.pathfindersfarm.com

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#84484 - 05/19/08 07:29 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
And here's one of my favorite Cream Light Brown cock birds:

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www.pathfindersfarm.com

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#84485 - 05/19/08 01:18 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Billy Goat Gruff Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Kentucky
The BCLB has too many points on his comb...

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#84486 - 05/19/08 01:20 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Billy Goat Gruff Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Kentucky
only one and to me not as big a deal as some make it out to be...very nice birds from you all

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#84487 - 05/19/08 02:40 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
Quote:
Originally posted by billygoatgruff:
The BCLB has too many points on his comb...
Yes, but there's something that's more important, and more subtle. Jean taught me about it. Anyone else want to take a stab at it?
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Laura Haggarty
www.pathfindersfarm.com

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#84488 - 05/19/08 06:35 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Steve G. Offline
Chicken

Registered: 10/16/06
Posts: 76
Loc: Massachusetts
Laura,
Nice group of males and the hen is a really beautiful. On the Blue Cream for a fault it looks to me like he may carry his wings to low. This could be just how he is standing in the picture and or could be that his legs are a little shorter then they should be. Thats my guess. They are all birds to be proud of. Nice job.
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#84489 - 05/19/08 07:08 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
Remember, you are not critiquing the BIRD, but his PICTURE. What looks like a tad bit off, here or there, may not look that way, at all, when he moves and you snap at another instant!
Better or worse-it is the bird's picture to critique.

A nice lot of pictures to view!!! CJR

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#84490 - 05/19/08 07:41 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
I would think there is too abrupt of a transition from the back to the tail. He may be just carrying his tail too high at the time the picture was taken. Is that it?
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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#84491 - 05/19/08 09:06 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Sarah M. Spotten Offline
Bantam

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 70
Loc: California
The fault in the otherwise gorgeous BCLB of Laura's (or rather, the picture of him) is in the tail. The top main tail feathers stick out beyond the top sickles, breaking the overall cardioid shape of the tail.

Is this problem harder to breed away from, and that's why it's more of a fault than a six-pointed comb?
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Sarah M. Spotten

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#84492 - 05/20/08 04:18 AM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
Billy Goat Gruff Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 44
Loc: Kentucky
Very good lesson!!!!!! Hard to spot when looking at the entire bird, the whole "picture" so to speak...but when pointed out..it is very obvious.. Thanks Laura and Sarah, I learned something today...is this something that could be dominantly passed on and should we select hard against it if we find it in our birds??? Is there some tail angle to look for that may cause it....I don`t recall seeing it before....but didn`t see it this time either???!!

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#84493 - 05/20/08 01:37 PM Re: "Dutch" that are not Dutch
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
Quote:
Originally posted by BirdySpot:
The fault in the otherwise gorgeous BCLB of Laura's (or rather, the picture of him) is in the tail. The top main tail feathers stick out beyond the top sickles, breaking the overall cardioid shape of the tail.

Is this problem harder to breed away from, and that's why it's more of a fault than a six-pointed comb?
You win! FWIW, this particular bird got better after he molted and as he matured, with his tail carriage more rounded, and his sickles where they should be. It's something Jean pointed out when I sent her the picture the first time (he's two years older now) and it wasn't until she mentioned it that I was able to see it. I don't think judges may see it either, unless they know what to look for.

It's taught me to select for birds with curvature in their main tail feathers, and is now one of those things I see right away when I look at a bird. Thanks again Jean!

Great spot Sarah (no pun intended.) laugh
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Laura Haggarty
www.pathfindersfarm.com

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