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#84923 - 03/29/07 09:20 PM Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
Kristi Offline
Chicken

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 101
Loc: California
I just received an inquiry from someone in Vermont looking for cuckoo dutch bantams. I don't know which ADBS members are breeding cuckoo dutch. Do any of you know who is breeding cuckoo dutch in the U.S.?

Thanks
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#84924 - 03/29/07 11:09 PM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
Kristi Lets see if I can post this the right way. There were some Dutch breeders breeding Cuckoo a few years ago. OEGB crossed birds. Now if they still breed them I do not know. So no. I do not think there are any Dutch type Cuckoo in the US now. Did I do OK Jean ? LOL. Rog
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#84925 - 03/29/07 11:19 PM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
There are two hatcheries offering Cuckoo "Dutch". These are from a supplier who sells them eggs. Since Cuckoo all have light colored legs, it is easier to make a crossbred Cuckoo with OEGB. Ear lobes can be a problem. (and general TYPE). There are some very nice KoeKoek in Holland, but I have never heard of any imported to the U.S., even in the earliest imports. So, Dutch? Right on, Roger. CJR

If I were a better geneticist, I could sort Cuckoo from my Mille Fleur Dutch, as the mottled gene is in the Mille Fleur make up of my birds.(Holland) The Buff Columbian gene is there, also, and I have sorted it out easily. Most all of my male Mille Fleurs have Cuckoo undercoat, but I have no plan to sort it out into a whole Cuckoo Dutch bird!

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#84926 - 03/30/07 07:21 PM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
Kristi Offline
Chicken

Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 101
Loc: California
That is what I expected, but I just did not know for sure.
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#84927 - 03/31/07 04:47 AM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
L. Haggarty Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 440
Loc: Kentucky
Hi folks,

About a week ago Ken Lee asked me to post these photos of his new Crele project for him, and I didn't get to it (I've been tied up with some family issues.) But here they are (aren't they wonderful! He apologizes for the fuzziness, you all know how hard it can be to get good photos of birds.)

Here's what Ken said about them: "Bred from a Crele Dutch cockbird and an LB hen. Nothing outside the breed as far back as I can tell but who really knows. I do know that the sire and dam exhibit true Dutch type. I am also isolating the Cuckoo gene from these birds and have a few chicks and more in the incubator."

Cheers,

Laura













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#84928 - 03/31/07 03:40 PM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
Thanks so much Ken, for sharing your work--and Laura for posting.

Here is a Crele "Dutch" of just several years ago, and a Show winner. Nothing Dutch about the bird (OEGB).

And this is a beautiful Koekoekpatrijs of Holland a year ago, but they have looked like this for many years, in Holland!



So, Ken, your LBs are improving the type on Crele that could not have been created with "old" line Dutch! Well done--a real boost for the Dutch! Keep going. Cuckoo? CJR

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#84929 - 04/04/07 04:28 PM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
Ken Offline
Bantam

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Florida
Thanks for the kind words Jean. The Crele I am working on to improve are some Crele's that I found from Joe Arrington's line. The ones I am working on are my F1's. I crossed a Crele male from Joe's line to some very nice LB females. I have also hatched some Cuckoo's by crossing the Crele males to Black females from Johnny Sprouse. His Blacks are from a male that belonged to Monte Bowen and some Blues I made several years ago. I gave all of my Blacks to Johnny. And Rog...Except for the fact that I cannopt verify Joe's breeding, these birds are very Dutch. wink I will try and keep anybody interested updated.
Ken

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#84930 - 04/04/07 05:22 PM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
Yes, I knew Joes birds--I have some video of his birds--before the Creles. And do you know if one can reach his wife? I last heard from him last fall, just back from Florida, then not long ago, heard the tragic news of his death. He was here for a visit and Deer hunting with a son, but I was leaving for Holland the next day, so did not get much of a visit at that time. We always kept in touch and talked about the birds. He got birds from me a few years ago, wanted the Red Shouldered Black (old English Game cross. Spangled OEGB x LB Dutch, and I disbursed those birds, after one cross with my Dutch. ) and he got some nice Blue Light Browns. The Red Shouldered Blacks had the MhMh genes, good for Crele body color, and were bred by Bob Bassett. Watch the saddle color on the male (BBRED). You will fix it! CJR

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#84931 - 04/05/07 08:01 PM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
And Rog...Except for the fact that I cannopt verify Joe's breeding, these birds are very Dutch. Ken Jean has told me that she has seen some Blacks with Dutch type shown. May have been his birds. Do not know. All I can say is that the Black cocks I used were not to good. I bought some blue hens from Willis Hadley that were nice. Have one old hen left. Was new at breeding the Dutch. Would do a little different breeding now in the same situation.With the Blacks. Go tell. Rog
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#84932 - 04/06/07 12:03 PM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
Volklet Offline
Chicken

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 108
Loc: Scotland
Great minds think alike.....! I had taken some photos of my Creles at the weekend to ask for some advice on them and here is this interesting conversation!

The barring on that hen you have posted is really superb. How would I improve mine to that sort of standard?

My pair are Blue Crele I think - certainly the cockerel is very bluey.

How would I go about bringing out the Cuckoo? I get the impression from reading this conversation I need to mate a Crele to a Black - does the sex of the two partners matter?

Any advice on improving my birds VERY welcome - I should add that there is no OEGB in these, just in case that alters what advice you might give.

Catherine



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#84933 - 04/07/07 09:02 AM Re: Cuckoo Dutch Bantams
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8489
Loc: Montana
Volklet, I won't advise on Crele--and in Scotland, as I have no experience with Crele (Koekoekpatrijs=CuckooLight Brown). Crele is the variety name in OEGB for generations. Cuckoo Light Brown indicates the Dutch name for the similar variety--and its Dutch origin, Dutch Cuckoo and Dutch Light Brown cross.

Now, more about Joe Arringtons's birds: Phoenix Crele, Cuckoo Dutch that came from OEGB some time before. Joe had to disburse his birds when he went to Florida. My last letter from him, back home, talked about getting some Dutch again.
Phoenix breeders in that area were using Cream Light Brown Dutch to brighten their Goldens. So there has been an exchange of birds with Phoenix breeders for some time.

A new variety for a breed takes many generations if with other standardized breed-cross--and lucky, Ken, that you were able to obtain some of the later birds in the production, and you perhaps, have added superior Light Browns? The pictures of Ken's project show nice Dutch type and lovely color and pattern. Both Cuckoo and Crele often show superior type in the females, while still being good in the males. (There is genetics reason). The book, "THE DUTCH BANTAM" gives some valuable information, especially about the variations in Cuckoo, which will affect the Crele. It would be good to have more people working on the variety, as even in Holland and Germany, right now, there are few breeders of Crele, and I hear that it has recently been harder to breed exhibition color and pattern in both countries. "Getting" it and "keeping" it are not the same. Breeders in those countries have worked together exchanging breeding birds, and so the Dutch varieties are becoming more uniform in those countries. Breeders exchange lots of information--and we can, also.

CJR

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