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#115030 - 11/01/15 11:59 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
Maybe Red Splash White is just a variation on the continuum of mottling (actually it is pied) like shown in Pita Pinta Asturiana?




Source:
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/patron-racial
http://www.pita-pinta.com/?page_id=33

See continuum of Platenbont
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=114145#Post114145
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#115033 - 11/02/15 01:08 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
It looks like the red mottled version has I Dominant White too, & homozygous I/I are being bleached out (phaeomelanin), similar to the Pyle Modern Game I have, & as explained in the Jubilee (I Dominant White -double laced) Indian Game paper.

Another trait of the rs was some with a red spot on the top of the head of day-olds. This is similar to the Exchequer Jap chicks I had, ie day-olds were white with a black (sometimes red) spot on top of the head. Some were solid white. Makes sense now after the recent discovery of mo and mo^w DNA results & the phenotypes of the Japanese tested birds. Wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple mottled alleles (eg as hypothesized by Smyth, & listed by Somes: mo^pi pied), but we will have to wait until a greater range of mo phenotypes are DNA tested.

Would be interesting if the bleaching white undercolour, white base of tail, white neck hackles, white wing flights, bleaching E & ER epidermal pigment, etc trait was isolated, DNA sequenced. Apparently the mo^w trait bleaches id+ dermal pigment.

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#115040 - 11/02/15 01:58 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Forgot to say thanks Redcap for the Spanish links.

I wonder if the patron Dr Orozco is the same one who is a part of the Spanish breeds genetics research team (ie Campo et al.)? Hopefully they will investigate the genetics - some DNA testing would be great.

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#115041 - 11/02/15 03:41 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
It's always a pleasure to share papers/sites and enhance a discussion.
Dr. Orozco has made some poultry publications together with Dr. Campo
http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/autor?codigo=1630057
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#115543 - 03/12/16 02:26 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Redcap
Maybe Red Splash White is just a variation on the continuum of mottling (actually it is pied) like shown in Pita Pinta Asturiana?




Source:
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/patron-racial
http://www.pita-pinta.com/?page_id=33

See continuum of Platenbont
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=114145#Post114145


I just want to recall the question whether pied is a allele of the I-locus.
Which formula should be valid?

E E o Er) pipi CoCo (S ) blbl ( C ) bb

or
(E E o Er) I^piI^pi CoCo (S ) blbl ( C ) bb

And could pile be considered as a variety of paint?
So I^pi could replace the nomenclature RSY^D (Red Shoulder Yokohamas Diluter) from Brian Reeder??
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.de/2014/03/visual-white-in-chicken-varieties.html
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#115544 - 03/12/16 05:55 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
I think Brian's RSY^D was probably either the Bl allele or an allele of the Bl locus (ie heterozygotes were blue phenotype, not I white). I don't know if he did Bl locus test breeding?

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#115545 - 03/12/16 06:11 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
For the case that RSY^D is actually blue - isn't Pile generally based on dominant white and could it be considered as an allele of I?
So could we conclude, that pile and pied should get a nomenclature similar to the shank feathering one - e.g.like I^pi1 for pile and I^pi2 for Exchequer?
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#115546 - 03/12/16 08:34 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
See Ahab's Ghost posts on his RSY crosses (eg RSY x black Sumatra produced blue with black specks/spots, RSY x Red Lehorn (with black in the tail) produced blue-tailed reds, etc).

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38130&page=all

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38954#Post38954

*but they may be different in other lines & in other countries.

One Australian RSY line (owned by Ruff) had Bl too.

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#115547 - 03/12/16 09:22 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Redcap
For the case that RSY^D is actually blue - isn't Pile generally based on dominant white and could it be considered as an allele of I?
So could we conclude, that pile and pied should get a nomenclature similar to the shank feathering one - e.g.like I^pi1 for pile and I^pi2 for Exchequer?


No, "Pile" (or Pyle) is a phenotype, not a mutation. Pile phenotype is generally produced by I dominant white. "I" is an allele of the I dominant white locus, not "pile". If I dominant white had been named "Pil" Pile instead.... Then a second mutation on the locus would start with Pil^ .... then a superscript name. Eg, if Erminette Er was determined to be another allele of the same locus as this theoretical "Pil", it would be renamed PilEr (Pil^Er) or as it stands now - I dominant white locus: IEr (I^Er)

And it would be a bad idea naming another mutation pied considering Somes has this for exchequer (Leghorns), allelic to mo locus (ie mopi). Notice too that the mutation that loci are named after, don't generally have the superscript. It's usually reserved for when new alleles are found on the locus. So I don't know why Brian uses "^" for his "red shouldered yokohama dilute" RSY^D (there's not a locus called RSY).

If Brian's RSY^D was an allele of the Bl locus, but not the Bl gene (a different mutation), then the gene symbol would start with "Bl", followed by a superscript name (whatever the mutation name is). Say it was named "red shouldered yokohama dilute" RSYD, then to make it an allele of Bl locus, it then becomes "BlRSYD" (Bl^RSYD). If it was an allele of the I locus, then it becomes IRSYD (I^RSYD)

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#115548 - 03/12/16 09:40 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
You can quickly see how it wouldn't work having the naming structure like shank feathering loci, considering the diversity in phenotypes on the I locus, ie white, smoky, dun alleles.

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