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#115549 - 03/12/16 09:57 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
But, if You watch at the Pinta phenotypes You can find the pile phenotype in black and red. Therefore my question ...
I will try to get in contact with Dr. Orozco, to ask him, what he think about the I-locus hypthesis of I^pi I^mo and I^jubilee
Jubilee is considered to be heterogeneous I/i
In this Study i/i x I/I produce all Jubilee (I/i)
and I/I x I/i produce all Whites, so the question is, why You can breed Jubilee/Exchequer over generations - even if they are theoretically I/I again since long time??
Therefore I believe that Jubilee or pied could be a mutation of I (with leakage) or can it explained on polygenic way?
Do mottling (mo) or pied (pi) or Jubilee produce a leakage in I -if mo, pi or Jubilee is homogeneous?
If that is true, then Jubilee should be also a mutation, which cause leakage in I - right?
But in other crossings the backcrosses show white phenotype after a few generations.
Therefore the question is, that why pile, Exchequer or Jubilee doesn't disappear over many generations, when You can expect, that the White is pure/hom I/I again?
Where is the difference between the backcrosses of Paint/Jubilee and Non-Paint/Non-Jubilee birds with I/I birds, that the first could be Paint or Jubilee again after F2, but the last can be selecteed back to White(I/I) after F2?
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post13

So far we know - if mo or pi is heterogeneous, the Phenotype is white, even in I/i birds.
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#115550 - 03/12/16 10:02 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Just looked it up. Although on Pubmed Somes' abstract on the paper "Identifying the ptilopody (feathered shank) loci of the chicken" has no superscripts, in the full paper he does have them. Eg:

On the Pti-1 locus there are two mutation alleles:
Pti-1L (Pti-1^L Langshan mutation)
Pti-1B (Pti-1^B Brahma mutation)

Plus he found that there was another ptilopody locus with the birds studied: Pti-2

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#115551 - 03/12/16 10:45 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Redcap
But, if You watch at the Pinta phenotypes You can find the pile phenotype in black and red. Therefore my question ...


But does the Black Pinta have an I locus mutation? I don't think it has. Would be easy enough to test the locus, eg a perfect cross would be with e+/e+ Id/Id hom. duns.

The red Pintas appear to be eWh Co s+ chick down (going by chick photos, not diagrams). Plus they could have I &/or Bl - to remove the red columbian eumelanin. Then the additional mo modifiers or different mo locus alleles or white/bleaching modifiers, & it's easy to explain the different phenotypes.

Originally Posted By: Redcap
I will try to get in contact with Dr. Orozco, to ask him, what he think about the I-locus hypthesis of I^pi I^mo and I^jubilee
Jubilee is considered to be heterogeneous I/i
Int this Study i/i x I/I produce all Jubilee (I/i)
and I/I x I/i produce all Whites, so the question is, why You can breed Jubilee over generations - when they are theoretically since long time I/I ??
Therefore I believe that Jubilee or pied could be a mutation of I (with leakage) or can it explained on polygenic way?
Do mo or pied produce a leakage in I?
If that is true, then Jubilee should be also a mutation, which cause leakage in I - right?
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post13


No. Firstly, you've got the theoretical nomenclature analogy incorrect. We already know from DNA sequencing & test breeding for loci that mottled / pied (exchequer mo^pi) & white (mo^w) phenotypes & genes are not on the same locus as I locus with dom. white, smoky & dun. So don't do a I^pi or I^mo nomenclature as this is proven not to be true.

Eg, we know that some White Leghorn lines have both mo/mo AND I/I. This is not possible if mo and I were alleles of the same locus. Remember that Carefoot crossed Mottled Ancona with Exchequer Leghorn and produced intermediate phenotype - ie both breeds had alleles from the same mo locus.

So say you believe that there is another mutation on the I locus that is similar to heterozygous I/i+ phenotype, eg Paint Silkies, Erminettes, then give it another theoretical name, not an erroneous name like mo that has another meaning & already established on the mo locus. Why confuse matters?

As to Jubilee Indian Games - here in Australia the exhibition phenotype is usually I/i+, the I/I are generally too washed out (the red diluted or just peppered with white). Similar to my Pile Modern Games - I/I are much paler/washed out than the I/i+, although how much phaeomelanin is affected by I/I depends on other modifiers in the birds (eg one Pile I/I MGB rooster has nearly full phaeomelanin pile pattern but also has a gold/red tinge to the white breast).

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#115552 - 03/12/16 10:51 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Redcap
Originally Posted By: Redcap
Maybe Red Splash White is just a variation on the continuum of mottling (actually it is pied) like shown in Pita Pinta Asturiana?




Source:
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/patron-racial
http://www.pita-pinta.com/?page_id=33

See continuum of Platenbont
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=114145#Post114145


I just want to recall the question whether pied is a allele of the I-locus.
Which formula should be valid?

(E E o Er) pipi CoCo (S ) blbl ( C ) bb

or
(E E o Er) I^piI^pi CoCo (S ) blbl ( C ) bb

And could pile be considered as a variety of paint?
So I^pi could replace the nomenclature RSY^D (Red Shoulder Yokohamas Diluter) from Brian Reeder??
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.de/2014/03/visual-white-in-chicken-varieties.html


They state (E E o Er) pipi CoCo (S ) blbl ( C ) bb
But at the same time Exchequer are claimed to be on the I-locus. The question is again, whether mo or pi can be really combined with recessive White??
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#115553 - 03/13/16 12:11 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Redcap


They state (E E o Er) pipi CoCo (S ) blbl ( C ) bb
But at the same time Exchequer are claimed to be on the I-locus. The question is again, whether mo or pi can be really combined with recessive White??


I assumed that was for the black Pintas (considering the genotype was surrounded by blacks). At the end of the page they have the ER phenotype (silver birchen - striped hackles).

Look on this page (* ie the red pintas) & see the eWh s+ Co chick downs (and maybe other E locus alleles, eg some buff faced white like blushing beauties - eb s+ Co I or e+).
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/patron-racial


Remember too that the mo allele in the Japanese DNA sequencing study diluted all e+ stripe chick down except a pigment spot on the head.


Edited by KazJaps (03/13/16 12:17 AM)
Edit Reason: clarified

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#115554 - 03/13/16 12:42 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Redcap
But at the same time Exchequer are claimed to be on the I-locus.


? I missed this. Who is claiming that Exchequer is on the I locus? The mutation in Exchequer Leghorns certainly isn't.

Or are you talking about Brian Reeder's article? He did mention he thought RSY^D might be an I locus allele. Possibly in some lines - this needs to be locus tested.

He needs to keep in mind that Exchequer have white tipped feathers whereas nearly all of the Yokohama X examples given don't (on black feathers) (inc. BYC thread).

Plus there can be a great range of phenotypes with Bl/Bl, eg solid white examples (Spanish researchers), white with black splashes, pale grey, pale grey with splashes (blue or black), blue with black splashes, blue, etc.

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#115555 - 03/13/16 01:30 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
I stumbled over this ...
Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
aha ... mo/mo ... mo^Pi/mo^Pi ... Pi/Pi ... I^Pi/I^Pi ... who shall say it !

_________________________

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#115556 - 03/13/16 02:42 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3228
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Redcap
I stumbled over this ...
Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
aha ... mo/mo ... mo^Pi/mo^Pi ... Pi/Pi ... I^Pi/I^Pi ... who shall say it !



You and SilverSilkie are a dangerous couple...

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#115638 - 04/02/16 06:26 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
jeremy Offline
Chick

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 18
Loc: CA
Wondering if anyone can offer any input here:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=115637#Post115637

Thanks in advance.

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#117221 - 07/04/18 05:55 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: jeremy]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
What are everyone's thoughts about my cockerel? RedCap suggested I read the discussion about the pied breed Pita Pinta Asturiana and I did find the read fascinating, but I fail to see how it it relevant to my cockerel. Maybe I'm on a mental overload from reading everything I can about the Barring alleles so I can figure out what's going on with my Naked Neck chickens, but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=117220&#Post117220

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