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#89474 - 05/27/10 04:30 PM Identifying Melanizers
Wieslaw Offline
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It has been a long time since melanizers as a whole were really on the agenda, so here you have a new exercise. As I mentioned recently in several threads, 3 years ago I crossed a black mottled cock with a brown Leghorn hen. The F1 birds were as expected: crowwing cocks and totally black hens. I crossed them and hatched some e+/e+ in F2. None of the F2 birds remained unaffected by eumelanin, but the range of eumelanization was staggering. Now I'll show a series of pictures. Feel free to suggest what melanizers they have and what melanizers they don't have.

Type 1: Least affected; chick down practically unaffected.





Type 2: More affected.





Type 3: The whole back black, deep black neck hackles, chick down strongly affected--chipmunk stripes practically black, first set of feathers matte black, shiny in adulthood. (Matte black never occured in my blacks before.)



Type 4: Nearly all the bird black, deep black neck hackle, chick down strongly affected, chipmunk stripes practically black, very dark, thick and extra long eye stripes (like Elizabeth Taylor in Cleopatra), first set of feathers matte black, shiny in adulthood, melanized breast.



Cocks all feathered out totally matte black in the first set of feathers. One of them at the time of culling(3 months) was still all black. The other is shown in this thread.

Types 2, 3, and 4 were crossed to e+/e+ and gave offspring like the hen on the left (some black markings on the back):



Apart from the birds above, I have a hen that I bought. She was hatched in a flock of light brown Leghorns and culled because of her black head and hackle.

Type 5:



When crossed to e+/e+, she gave six pullets: three looked like her, two like the pullet in the middle, and one had only the top of the head black.


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#89481 - 05/28/10 02:38 AM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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So how do you know that Type 4 is not E/? ? Maybe these have lost a melanizer relative to the F1s.

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#89482 - 05/28/10 02:57 AM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
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I base it on two factors:

1. They hatched as chipmunks, and
2. When crossed to wild type, all their offspring were chipmunks. The adult progeny is shown in Picture 7.

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#89495 - 05/28/10 04:25 PM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: Wieslaw]
RuffEnuff Offline
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Registered: 01/27/06
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Loc: Australia
Very interesting. One thing you can say is that they would range from one dose of melanizers to two. Because the roosters were black red, they bacame blacker than the hens.

I also wonder if there are genes involved that limit hackle black, or Db that pushes hackle black to the end of the feather, or even if the lacing gene has as there is obviously Pg in there, too. I have exactly the same things happen on eb and eWh. It seems the back is blacker depending on what e base the bird has started with in the first place.

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#89497 - 05/28/10 10:11 PM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: RuffEnuff]
Wieslaw Offline
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The breeds involved were black mottled Leghorn with an infusion of pure black Minorca around 10-12 years ago. They were all silver based. Grandmother was just a "plain" light brown Leghorn, purest possible. If there is Pg in there, it must have come from one of these breeds. In some older threads there were some meanings/suggestions that melanizers can make a spangle by themselves (if I recall correctly). As far as Db is concerned, I think it would/should show by turning them into Columbians.

There is a similar kind of lace on the wings of Deutsche Zwerghühner wildfarbig (I made a thread on them recently). They don't seem to carry Db either.

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#89524 - 05/31/10 05:24 AM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
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Correction.

I have a correction about the daughters from the hen of Type 5. The pullets that were exactly like her were actually fathered by the cock from the thread to which I linked in the first posting (the melanized duckwing). Sorry.The other two types of daughters were fathered by the wild type.

Judging by the number of responses, we know practically nothing for sure about melanizers, don't we?

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#89575 - 06/02/10 01:44 PM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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You could do test crosses of each type with Lakenvelder or other fowl with known melanizers (except single laced or spangled). There could be more than one melanizer gene in play.

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#89582 - 06/02/10 03:48 PM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: Henk69]
RuffEnuff Offline
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Registered: 01/27/06
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Loc: Australia
It would be so much easier if there were more knowldge on melanizers. I am playing with much the same thing in making laced and mille fleur Pekins. Have you got an aim in your breeding, Wieslaw?

In my breeding I am wondering if some of the melanizers are more easy to be organized than others. For example, moving it into a laced and a spangle and also into different places of the feather and body on eb, eWh, and ER. I'm afraid I don't know if I have e+ birds, but I have developed chick down on Sebright lines that look like the Fayoumi chick down. Now I'm wondering if I can do it in the Pekins. I have a very nice Pekin cockerel that looks like a Lakenvelder but with smatterings of black on his breast.

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#89619 - 06/05/10 05:32 AM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: RuffEnuff]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
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Henk, if I lived in the country, I would do this long time ago. But I have six neighbors adjacent to my possesion, so it is limited how many projects I have courage to make at a time. . Additionally, I don't know anybody with Lakenvelders, and I don't buy birds from outside (only eggs), as I got hit by ILT from an in-bought broody some years ago, so I have learned my lesson for ever! By a miracle, my breeding birds did not get infected.

Third problem is that I "park" birds that are waiting for their turn to breed at my wife's brother. Unfortunately, a mink payed him a visit at night time, and there were very few survivors. I still have the hen of Type 2 and her son, which is now e+/e+ mo/mo/S/s plus one half of what she has of melanizers.

I also have hen Type 5 (she is pushing 6 now; her two daughters are at my brother-in-law) and two daughters from hen 4. The rest are gone.

If anybody living in the country would like to contribute to the science, it is very easy to do. All you need is one black Minorca, one light brown Leghorn, and one Lakenvelder (or other) for crossing to F2.

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#89630 - 06/05/10 03:45 PM Re: Identifying Melanizers [Re: RuffEnuff]
RuffEnuff Offline
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Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 1148
Loc: Australia
Henk69, what melanizers are at play in Lakenvelders?

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