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Hi all

I was sure I had got my Marans/Orp Bantam problem cracked but no, here we go again - dead in shell at the last hurdle. It had actually pipped but not right round and had it's beak out. I finally succumbed and took out the egg - no heart beat I opened it up and the yolk wasn't absorbed.

There goes my theories about weight loss. This egg had a perfect 13% weight loss curve. It's mate is still going strong (only 2 this time, 8 of 10 infertile despite collection).

It's almost like it pipped too early? Any ideas?

The Wyandottes from 2 different sources are all fine, 1 batch fully hatched already, the others not started yet but heart beats strong.

The yplk comes out after it dies as there is no muscle tone to keep the navel closed. How related are the parents? What are you feeding the parents? Can you set eggs the day they are laid? Say a little more about the conditions they are kept...this may turn into a guessing game.
Jocelyn

My opinion is that you should seriously reconsider if you want to work further with this line. Hatchability 75% a big succes ? Hello! We are talking about the level of one recessive lethal!
If all the other chicks hatch as they should, it shows clearly that there is something wrong with the parents. I think it is one of these things, where the breeders only pay attention to one trait-in this case most probably the egg colour, and forget that the birds should hatch properly. Hatching process is not supposed to be a kind of 'circus' with prenatal life support. Normally the chicks are supposed to jump out of the shells by themselves. Sometimes I help one chick or two, but only if I think it was my fault.

Thank you both for your input.

Yes I was seriously considering whether there was something either in this particular cross or in the individual birds themselves. Having got the heart monitor I do know with absolute certainty WHEN they died. I find it frustrating that I can't figure out why.

I don't own the parents, they are bought in eggs, so I have nothing to work with there.

Of course the larger subject is the Marans itself. I imagine the push for larger birds and darker eggs must fly in the face of nature a bit. Take the Belgian Blue cattle for instance. They are now so heavily muscled many breeders automatically have caesarians rather than natural births.

However 2 days ago I was lucky enough to get a beautiful breeding pair of French Copper Blues and I am already getting eggs from them The breeder is very reputable so I will have a yard stick to judge my hatching rates against. I also have a dozen plus eggs from him as well as 24 Copper Blues from 2 more reputable breeders plus 12 Cuckoo from another.

Frankly, I bought these to make sure I worked this out. It is very difficult to know whether it is the the eggs from this 1 source plus one or two co-incidences when you don't have a something to measure against in sufficient numbers, especially when the eggs are posted. 1 week and 2 weeks to hatching there.

I may well rethink my chocolate into Marans project when the dust settles.

Quick thought. I wonder if the fact that are Bantam rather than the more usual LF is a factor?

I think I will contact some of the Marans breeder and see if they will be kind enough to tell me their hatching rates.

Thanks again folks.

Posting eggs adds a new dimention to the subject, it can totally change the outcome. I have tried it myself several times. Last time I experienced a massive rate of deaths both before the day 18 and shortly before hatch. But this is the risk you take if you WANT these eggs.

I don't doubt that at all, just comparing like for like with other breeds, some posted some collected.

This last batch of eggs were actually collected and monitored for weight loss so I was hopeful of a better outcome. Wyandotte eggs that are posted have a pretty good result for example.

I am getting a few replies back from breeders. Some theorise that the quest for darker eggs is part of the problem.

A few things to keep in mind. First, like other have said, shipping can certainly affect hatch rates. Second, Some of the best dark egg lines do have lower hatch rates- it is something that you must accept if you work with them. I am not here to argue whether it is "natural" or not, just stating that due to the linebreeding you tend to have some weakness. You simply don't help to hatch and only breed from those who hatch normally. My egg color is very good and I typically get about a 80%-85% hatch rate. Third, when a chick pips the shell the yolk is normally not absorbed yet. There is still a lot, physiologically, left to be done between the time the chick pips the the shell and when it can survive outside the egg. If, soon after pipping, the chick dies for some reason the yolk will still be left outside the body.

Thank you Richard. I am begining to understand. I think once I accept that the marans will have a lower hatch rate the rest can be explained by one particular cross of Orps/Marans of which I had 3 batch, 2 posted, 1 collected. With those out of the equation, the figures look more as one would expect.

If I help anything at all and it survives, I have kept a record so it's highly unlikely I would want to breed from it.

For the moment I am simply putting myself through a learning curve. For example, if I imported some eggs and every one really counted, then at least I will have the experience should the need arise.