Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#909 - 11/01/04 09:11 AM The art & the science of feeds & feeding
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
I have been going over that thread which Brett initiated. not sure how it went haywire. I do feel it leaves room for discussion. I would like to have a grain mix such as was mentioned.
I think Lee and Caveny are correct to assume that scientifiacly formulated feeds are the route most should go with in feeding their animals. These feeds are probably the best there are for commercial flocks and for those new to the fancy, or those who have kept fowl for many years but dont do anything extraordinary with the livestock.It is tried and proven science. Some snacks or treats can be offered without much harm if offered within reason.
There is also an art to feeding livestock. There is some science involved in this method also, but mostly the art of the manager. Just as feeding an little used riding horse has to be vastly different from the feed for a sport horse or show animal, the feed for a meat bird or an egg producer must be much different than a sporting fowl or a top show bird. Egg production is not the goal of some. longtails are generally fed a higher protein diet to attain better feathering, the feathers are wet for months longer than a rock or leghorn. A hard body is important, fast growth usually doesnt matter. A sporting fowl can be maintained on a diet formulated by Purina and do well, he will not be at the peak of his genetic capabilities without some creative feed management. Most hobby flocks could do well for their owners with a mixed bag of feeding ideas. There should be no argument on how to feed, different end uses of the animal will dictate different feeding regimens. Discussion of feeds and feeding is a vital part of keeping stock. Its a large part of what fanciers like to discuss; every time fanciers or cockers assemble. I have seen some over the wall things too, some just tend to go overboard with the importance of vinegar, yogut and on and on.
I have experimented over the years with varying degrees of interest in how and what to feed. Some things were of no added benefit, some were good ideas. Just sticking to the standard recommended scientificaly proven was/is not my stick.
I have pretty much settled on game bird breeder and turkey grower(21%) for all of my fowl, land, water and pigeons. I supplement with greens(a variety) and whole corn, squash(summer & winter) and other grains and seeds.
Works for me.

Top
#910 - 11/01/04 05:13 PM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
WeatherWood Gardens Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 403
Loc: Wisconsin
We must remember what we are feeding and why. It doesn't do a lick of good to feed meat bird grower to bantams or layer mash to meat birds. Game bird food and turkey grower for show birds or game birds and all feeds the normal feed is given all day while treats are once and awhile.
Wet feeds will get birds to eat what they would rather not. I have a dandy wet oat and rice combo that works for longtails but not for bantams.Standard birds need more food then the little bantam and a over sized bantam is a waste.
Some treats work to give meds and sugar water helps to get those birds drinking again.
The hard part is knowing not to over feed.When you mix all kinds of things in when you mess up the ration.My soft dog food is stopped in winter.But that is by choice. In the pens get green oat grass and 3rd crop hay. Would not I tell anyone what to feed,no that is their choice and it is hard enough for me. Read up and see what you can use and make a wise choice on what people that make the feeds for a living think.

Top
#911 - 11/01/04 05:49 PM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
How cum you quit the dog feed in cold weather? Thats when I begin to feed it to the geese/ducks.

I dont know how you could read my post with all of those spelling errors, I cant see the stupid letters on the keys very well anymore. irritating as I dont know how to type either. 2 fingers.

Top
#912 - 11/01/04 06:03 PM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
WeatherWood Gardens Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 403
Loc: Wisconsin
I run a major geens attack on them and not worry about the dog food to prime for show.I will be doing a meat add to the ration in April on the longtail males just to see if it is worth my time or not.They get the game bird feed and with the 3rd crop hay it seems to work. The vets likes how they look. I just slow them down a bit.I always hope I am doing right.
As for spelling gosh its me the poorest speller in Gods kingdom.Ask Lee! My boy has a work for it but I can't spell it.
PattiAnn

Top
#913 - 11/02/04 07:42 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
Anonymous
Unregistered


Patti, with Winter now approaching in the UK I have been thinking about feedstuffs. Normally the birds (layers only) get the rations of layer pellets, mixed scratch and fresh greens. Laying is now slowing due to less light and thats ok, I want to keep my flock without using artificial lighting. I'm toying with the idea of warm porridge oats in the morning what do you think?.
CB.

Top
#914 - 11/02/04 10:53 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
WeatherWood Gardens Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 403
Loc: Wisconsin
Warm foods will always be a hit with the birds.I have a wet oats and rice and cider vinegar(and apple juice) that I am using at at a 25% to the norm ration of game bird.They eat as much of this in a mad craze.The trick is getting enough moisture to hit the pellets too and not make them over eat. Then I put out just the pellets.
With less laying you can cut the protien unless they are growing.I like to run a very high protein in summer to keep them at their ideal for breeding.
It is work to warm the food but well worth the time. Make sure you wash every bowl well after. The crud can cause disease if you don't. I use cook pans for the heated food. When done into bleach water and cleaned and they can eat out of their hoppers.
Just keep the warm for early morning and the rest of the day with a normal ration so they get what the need too.With the warm feeds you can add meds and the like and they eat so fast they will not notice.PattiAnn

Top
#915 - 11/02/04 08:33 PM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK ya'll, you lost me good and proper LOL. When the post read "I quit the wet dog food in the winter" I THOUGHT you were talking about feeding your dogs!! ROFL When you said the longtails stayed wet longer, I thought they were in a lot of rain!! GEESH....is it just where I live??? LOL.
I have phesants that ARE gamebirds AND longtails. I have never fed them anything else BUT gamebird feed and occasionally some corn mix. I do mow the grass and dump some in when I can but not all the time. They are yearlings and have the longest tails of any I EVER had!! They are silvers and red-goldens. Are you only talking about long-tailed chickens like Yokos etc??
Also I am in the south, no snow or what many would consider a harsh winter...I guess that could make a difference.
sorry for my ignorance.
Sally

Top
#916 - 11/03/04 06:05 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
WeatherWood Gardens Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 403
Loc: Wisconsin
Years ago I started with the phoenix which after this weekend I will be getting a group in again of three trios. But I have yokohamas, sumatras and some other rare types who need extras for their feathers and breeding. Slow growers have needs that are special in the rare breeds and some birds get over tweeked in winter on a high protien ration. The wet oats promotes tail and feather regrowth and the rice will fill out young birds without over protien that happens if you make mistakes in over feeding wet foods. In spring I try to get the strongest of males going so the meat in the feed has been suggested by a breeder friend.For most people plain clean fresh foods you can buy for the breeds you have is the best route with added greens.When you talk to breeders every single one had a tweek idea they use for show I add wet dog food to the diet in summer,othes add all sorts things just to get the edge.It is more of a safty net to make us feel we are ahead of the game but to tell you the truth I have seen just as good birds from local non breeders with the food they buy and nothing else.Feeds become more then what they should to some of us, a pride issue and when we do not listen to the experts we may be in for a suprise later with what we are feeding. I go to the co-op and ask questions of those who make the feeds and I have asked help from DC.PattiAnn

Top
#917 - 11/03/04 07:26 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
My reference to wet featheres: the extra feathers and tail feathers on some of the Phoenix/Onagadori are filled with blood much longer than those on say a Rock. the blood is in the feathers as long as they are still growing, which on these birds can be most of the year, some just keep on growing. There is a lot to be learned about the longtails and there is more interest in Tombaku and working on tail length. feed companies just dont do research on the more specia;ized breeds and their needs so breeders must experiment for themselves. It seems obvious that a bird which grows a 4-8 foot tail and saddles which drag the ground will need a different diet than a egg breed which lives a tear or 3.

Top
#918 - 11/03/04 07:47 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
WeatherWood Gardens Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 403
Loc: Wisconsin
My sumatras still have the blood feathers and that will take time to grow.The phoenix will be in a tombakus my husband is building for all three males.(one male per tombaku) No gals alowed.Do you give the raw meat when they are about to breed or in blood feathers? Some say they give high protien all the time.I would think there is a cycle they follow but not to many have told me what they think.This feels a bit more like a guessing game then any science.I may have to ask the UW for help in the feed science.PattiAnn

Top
#919 - 11/03/04 09:13 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
I am not going to breed for the extreme tail length, my preference is length and abundamce of saddle area feathering. I am not dedicated enuff for the use of tombaku, partaially a time consideraTION ALSO. I dont have a feeding regimen down pat yet, I hope to do some thinking on that this winter. I am kind of entering a transitional period here, more veggies and more berries which may leave less time for quality breeding projects. I may just keep some ornamenatal pheasants and poultry in avuaries around in the perennial garden areas. Really hate to give up the breeding of the hamburgs, the others bredings may suffer some too but I do all this with no help and I am gettin older and slower!!

Top
#920 - 11/03/04 10:20 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
WeatherWood Gardens Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 403
Loc: Wisconsin
Like Marks Crele Phoenix? They are wonderful and I have the picture of the brother of his mix on the desk top. Keeps me honest in my work. I want it all saddle and tail.My Fayoumi has hackle into the saddle and tail like a mane.The Phoenix hens will never breed back into my old line of Phoenix I am getting but add into some of my other lines the boys will be worked for the tail.PattiAnn

Top
#921 - 11/05/04 01:55 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
Hi Rob,
Since this old thread I started-
Feed Mixes for Show stock & breeders
I ended up deciding to make my own grain/mash mix, for both breeders & young stock. I couldn't get hold of any commercially mixed poultry breeder feed. So I made up my own mix, based on a Agriculture Department recipe (for layers - small flocks) & not adding a layer premix (vitamins/minerals, etc), but a generalised amino acid, vitamin/mineral supplement for breeding livestock (ie, not designed for layers, but with instructions for use on poultry, etc). I did this as I didn't want the extra calcium, etc found in layer feed, as my bantams are lucky to lay 100 eggs per year. Plus I had problems with commercial chick starter feeds, as most had coccidiostats, some with medications not recommended for breeders (all my chicks are raised by broodies, alot of hens being my breeding hens). So I just adjust the mix for chicks/broodies, growers & breeders. I also adjust the grain percentages, depending on what I know the birds like eg, my Japs prefer more sunflower, the d'Uccles more budgie mix & safflower at the moment, some months ago they craved whole oats, barley & wheat with husks, now not so keen on these (plenty of other fibre now in the diet). I buy the wheat/milo/cracked corn already mixed. These are the main grain/seed ingredients. I know the supplier mixes accordingly to suit his exhibition games (eg, adjusts the mix in winter, more corn), & usually he is spot on, with my lot eating the mix equally (little waste of any grain).

My feed usually contains the following:

-Cracked Corn
-Wheat
-Milo

-Budgie mix (millets, etc)

-Flaked Barley (steamed & coated in molasses)
-Oats

-Safflower
-Black Sunflower

-Meat and bone meal
-Lucerne meal (Alfalfa)

-Wheat Pollard
-Rice Pollard

-Amino Acids/Vitamins/Minerals (for breeders)
-Enzymes/Probiotics

-Balanced oil blend for livestock (mostly fish oil, garlic added)- balanced Omega 3 -6 -9, & balanced Omega 3s.
-&/or Linseed oil
-Molasses vitamin/mineral blend (containing molasses, seaweed, yeast, apple cider vinegar, etc) (small quantity only, used with the oils as a sticking agent for the protein meal/vitamins/minerals/pollard mix )

--------------
-Shell Grit

*Apple Cider Vinegar (with garlic added)used in drinking water (added benefit keeps the water lines & drinkers clean of algae)

--------------

I've checked the feed with the following poultry feed formulation program:
http://ansc.une.edu.au/ansc/nutrition/downloads.html

and compared with:
Nutrient Requirements of Chickens and Turkeys

What ever I change to the balanced base mix (Ag. Dept mix), I still keep in proportion the grains to protein meals percentages, etc. As I've never come across a feed recipe, nor nutritional requirements specifically tested & trialled for exhibition bantams (that lay under 100 eggs per year), it's all been trial & error to develop a mix the birds will like & do well on. My mix is approximately 16% protein. I haven't been able to get hold of locally any legume grains suited for poultry (nor alot of legume meals, such as Soybean or oilseed/copra meals- only marketed for cattle/horses, etc), but if I do, I'll trial them in the mix. Fish meal is twice the price of meat meal. If I have the cash to spare I'll buy it (hasn't happened yet, lol).

Top
#922 - 11/08/04 05:18 AM Re: The art & the science of feeds & feeding
Jocelyn Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1467
Loc: Canada
It's going to depend on where you live, what extras you can feed. I feed hog grower pellets at 16 percent in bug weather, after the molt. When confined and unable to range, I feed emu breeder at 22 percent. During the molt, i feed frozen smelts or mussels, both cooked, as they are easier to handle that way. Both of these are available free, if you catch your own. In the case of smelts, people net them, throwing the small ones away, or ripping them out of the net carelessly so that they die. I go after them and gather up before the gulls get them all. You need to wait till the ice is fairly solid though, as a five gallon bucket of fish, plus a plump lady is heavier than you think..grin. If it's minus 50 something with the wind chill, I feed suet too...3 bucks for 8 pounds at the butcher's. Since my chickens live to their late teens and some to their early twenties, it seems to work.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


Moderator:  Admin @ The Coop, Foehn