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#92044 - 10/11/10 12:17 AM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: Muffi]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Basicly yes, with the addition of 'recessive'. Congratulations. Since the mother is heavily melanized, and her daughter is not(only a few feathers here and there) it indicates , that recessive melanizers are present. The melanization of the mother is too vast to be ascribed to only one dose of a (known) dominant melanizer. So what I've been trying to squeeze out of you is: e+/e+ S/s+ mo/mo + recessive melanizers from the mother.

Here is a picture of him as a chick(hatched as a silver chipmunk):


One more:




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#92046 - 10/11/10 02:31 AM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: Wieslaw]
Muffi Offline
Chicken

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 140
Loc: Massachusetts, US
Whew, what a struggle that was! To explain my original thinking of S/S Mo+/mo: I didn't think he was hetero silver as I've always thought S/s+ would look yellow. And I thought the fact about some of the feathers being old might have been a clue indicating that the mottling might be just from juvenile plumage of Mo+/mo (as I believe I read that Mo+/mo can show some mottling in young but not adult feathers).

Thanks for the genetics lesson. I look forward to more GGGs!

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#92048 - 10/11/10 02:43 AM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: Muffi]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
thanks for sharing this info Wieslaw, its been very interesting.

What are your thoughts on the dad's white in tail with respect to his sons "exchequer" pheno?

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#92050 - 10/11/10 03:12 AM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: Poultch]
GSC Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 752
Loc: United Kingdom
Yes I agree - very informative and looking forward to another. smile
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I'm 61 and have 6 dogs, one cat and 5 grandkids plus an au pair

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#92092 - 10/13/10 11:06 AM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: GSC]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Muffi,he is actually very very light creamish yellow on the saddle when you hold him in your hand. The information under the first picture was kind of redundant on purpose, to confuse the 'opponents'.(but it could have had importance in case of my Exchequers, which turn yellow in the hackles in sunlight) If I presented a bird where everything was obvious from get-go, it would not be so much fun for me.

Poultch, the father produced 4 sons from this cross, of which the bird in question was the only one with white shoulder and totally white tail(starting from second set of chick feathers). There were some pullets with totally white tails, but they never keep it to adulthood with me. One of them is shown here:



Cockerels do keep their white tails into adulthood. You can read about some special experience with the bird in question in this thread(tail changing colour after being pulled out)

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88862&page=3

Now he is molting , so I'm excited to see what happens now

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#92300 - 10/26/10 03:48 PM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Poultch, I have found pictures of his half-brother, which is now with my nephew. Pay attention to the transformation:

before molting he looked exactly like the cockerel on the first picture:


and now in his first adult molt(The wings! The main tail feathers! Go figure!)


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#92303 - 10/26/10 10:35 PM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: Wieslaw]
GSC Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 752
Loc: United Kingdom
Wow - that is some difference. Is that mainly the effect of the mottling gene?

I don't really get why they can look so different after the moult.


Edited by GSC (10/27/10 02:39 AM)
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I'm 61 and have 6 dogs, one cat and 5 grandkids plus an au pair

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#92310 - 10/27/10 02:27 AM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: GSC]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
Thanks for sharing Wieslaw,

I take it that the above cockeral is a paternal brother to the S/s+, mo/mo cockeral?
I only ask as I see the mother to the original cockeral has a shot of Pg, have you seen any other "restrictors" or "organisors" at play in these F2's?

cheers

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#92347 - 10/29/10 05:12 AM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: Poultch]
Wieslaw Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: GSC
Is that mainly the effect of the mottling gene
It is an open question, personally I believe that some unidentified modifiers can be involved too, taking the vast variety of phenotypes, involved with the mottling gene, into consideration.

Poultch, yes, the father was the same. Your question is open too, because I don't know for sure if Pg is involved. But it can't be ruled out, as some generations ago I gave one shot of Black Minorca blood into this line. I believe Spanish breeds are very close related to each other(they are practically identical), and there is Pg in Andalusions, so probability for Minorca being a Pg carrier is high.I read long time ago, that ancestors for the Spanish breeds came with the invading Arabs(the birds were described as black with big combs and big white ear lobes, so they all have common roots)
You can see the melanized e+/e+ segregants from original F1 cross here
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=89474&page=1

My experience with Pg is very small. Is it suppose to remove stippling on e+ when in one dose? Because it doesn't happen here.

Here is a daughter(melanized silver duckwing) of the cock in question:



The mother of this pullet is below on the left. Crossed to pure e+/e+ cocks, the mother only produces 'unpatterned'offspring. So the silver pullet above must have these spangles from the father. Do they look like Pg to anybody?



If I was to examine, whether it is Pg, what bird should I use for crossing? Any suggestions?

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#92606 - 11/12/10 11:49 AM Re: GGG (Guess Genotype Game) [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Update on the bird in question. Some of his new tail feathers are partially melanized . So he actually molted to darker this time. You can also see his new saddle, which is light yellow.



When I was younger I was very fascinated by white tails. I think I'm through with this phase. Simply because the white feathers wear out very fast , even before they grow fully out.

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