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#92794 - 11/20/10 03:07 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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Those leghorns have a very untypical shade of lavender imo.
Since leghorns are synonimous with dom.white, you can guess what I am thinking.

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#92795 - 11/20/10 05:37 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: Henk69]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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I can't Henk. Please articulate your thinking.


Edited by Hen-Gen (11/20/10 05:38 AM)
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#92798 - 11/20/10 09:20 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: Hen-Gen]
Henk69 Offline
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There is another purebreeding "blue" out there.
It is unknown what effect it has on pheomelanin.

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#92799 - 11/20/10 11:24 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: Henk69]
Sonoran Silkies Offline
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Smoky

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#92801 - 11/20/10 11:42 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: Sonoran Silkies]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Now I understand. An allele of dominant white. Has it been identified in any breed other than Silkies? Are you theorising that because Leghorns have I then this could mutate to smokey more easily than could i+?
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#92808 - 11/21/10 01:50 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: Hen-Gen]
KazJaps Offline
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The following - Smoky Is:


Photo originally from R. Okimoto. I think Ron tested Is effects on phaeomelanin? I.e., my impression was that Is was similar to Bl - no/little effect on phaeomelanin. He had some concerns with the release of Is to exhibition/backyard breeders, as he thought Is might replace Bl (eg, easier to breed true-breeding Blue Reds, etc with Is/Is instead of Bl/bl+).

But that doesn't mean that a similar mutation on the I (PMEL17 ) Dominant White locus couldn't produce dilution of both phaeomelanin & eumelanin.
--------------

Before reading your post Henk (re Leghorns), I also thought the first Leghorn rooster looked unusual for lavender (very patchy in shades of lavender), but just put it down to my poor blurry eyesight smile . Good to know its not just me wink

The Leghorn rooster in the middle of the document has wing patches - ie a trait common of lav/lav, but could be different lines.
I suppose another possibility is another spontaneous mutation on the lav locus, a mutation very similar to lav.

The Brahma look typical lav/lav.

Are the Dutch Isabel Patridge Leghorns related to the German Leghorn lines?:
Noordshow 2009 Isabelpatrijs

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#92809 - 11/21/10 02:33 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Yes, they are related. And the wing patches are a strong argument for lavender.
As to pheomelanin dilution of smoky. 2 doses of dom.white also are inhibiting expression of pheo, but not to the degree of lavender.

Hen-Gen,
Smoky is a revertant of the dom.white mutation. So something changed in the dom.white allele to counteract its own effect.
To arise from the wildtype i+ allele, would be a 2 step process.

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#92811 - 11/21/10 03:21 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: Henk69]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Henk69


Hen-Gen,
Smoky is a revertant of the dom.white mutation. So something changed in the dom.white allele to counteract its own effect.
To arise from the wildtype i+ allele, would be a 2 step process.


Thankyou for that information. It is news to me that the smokey allele had been characterised to that extent. It certainly makes your earlier statement entirely logical.
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#92812 - 11/21/10 03:25 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: KazJaps]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Originally Posted By: KazJaps
He had some concerns with the release of Is to exhibition/backyard breeders, as he thought Is might replace Bl (eg, easier to breed true-breeding Blue Reds, etc with Is/Is instead of Bl/bl+).




How odd!
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#92813 - 11/21/10 04:02 AM Re: whence came lavender [Re: Hen-Gen]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
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Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Hen-Gen
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
He had some concerns with the release of I^S to exhibition/backyard breeders, as he thought I^S might replace Bl (eg, easier to breed true-breeding Blue Reds, etc with I^S/I^S instead of Bl/bl+).


How odd!


I suppose I should of explained it better. Ron was concerned about gene preservation, ie concerned of losing / reduced Bl gene pool.

R. Okimoto:
The Coop - Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Quote:
Smoky can be a true breeding gray. With red modifiers it can be a true breeding chocolate milk color. So it would be better for these color patterns than Dun is. It should also make a true breeding blue red possible.

The only problem with Smoky is that if you believe in breed preservation these color types will become obsolete using the old Blue and Dun genes that do not breed true, so I don't really advocate widespread distribution, but you can't stop progress. Once it becomes established the old breeds will be in the minority because not very many backyard breeders are going to pass up the chance to not throw away 1/2 of their progeny because they can't show them as that color.

The breeders of blue reds will be very happy because Smoky doesn't dilute red. As an allele of dominant white it dilutes black more than red. Blue laced reds could breed true etc. I guess it isn't a current worry because it will probably take 20 to 30 years before it becomes a problem. By that time they may have two standards and you will have to tell the judge the genotype of your birds with a DNA certificate of authenticity to determine what category they are in.


Further on what stock the Smoky mutation was found...

R. Okimoto:
Quote:
Smoky was a mutation found in ADOL Line 0. This is a non inbred line that does not have any intact avian leukosis subgroup E retrovirus in their genomes. It is a White Leghorn line derived from a mix of commercial sources. It is segregating blue, and recessive mottling as well as having birchin and sex-linked barring and silver.

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