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#93927 - 01/13/11 05:37 AM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Redcap]
Henk69 Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Wow, thanks for that tip, Redcap!
You know how to browse the internet... wink

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#93928 - 01/13/11 05:57 AM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Henk69]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 954
Loc: Germany
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#93929 - 01/13/11 07:30 AM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Redcap]
Jocelyn Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1467
Loc: Canada
Perhaps we make things too hard for ourselves? If your personality, coop set up and grasp of statistics allow you to trap nest and figure out that Mary mated to Petey gives the highest proportion of daughters that lay eggs 20 percent darker than the flock mean, by all means go ahead...you will make lots of progress. If your personality and coop set up do not allow this, don't worry, "like begets like" is still valid. Lock up a lot of hens with a typey rooster and set the darker half or third of eggs laid. When you keep a male from these chicks and use him on a different bunch of hens, again set the darker ones...concentrating the dark egg genes. You don't have to know how it works....most animal breeding was done centuries ago before the internet, before literacy and mathematics. If you have a hen who lays very heavily for months and her eggs are lighter now than at the start of the laying season, or perhaps a 20 year old hen who still lays well but can't produce as dark a shell, well, lock them up separately and add dear old Petey every day to two to mate them. You can mark their eggs when you set them and mark their chicks if you like. You too will make progress. There are several ways to get the same results, so don't worry too hard about the "right" approach, use what suits you.

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#93930 - 01/13/11 08:13 AM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Jocelyn]
Welshman Offline
Feather

Registered: 01/10/11
Posts: 38
Loc: Wales UK
What should I feed old Petey on to keep his strenth up?

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#93936 - 01/13/11 10:07 AM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Welshman]
Jocelyn Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1467
Loc: Canada
Petey will need some extra animal source protein and some extra greens. Where you live will tell you what to feed him. If you live next to a creamery that makes butter, perhaps you can get some buttermilk. If you live close to a meat packing plant, perhaps you can get the gunk that sticks to the band saw when they are cutting meat. It will be a mixture of bone dust, meat and fat, and usually goes into a tub beside the work station. If you know any of the lads that work there, they may save you a bucket full at the end of the work day. I live next to the ocean, so I just go to the shore at low tide with a bucket for "beach goodies"..whatever the tide left in the way of lobster bits, half a cod fish, stranded mussels, any protein foods. Maybe you live next to a feed mill that sells trout or salmon feed, or fox feed....
Green stuff is easy too, grocery stores give away compost scraps here, perhaps they do too where you live??? Then, you can save grass clippings in the summer, or sprout oats for them in the winter, or see if the vegetable growers' co-op is packing vegetables and will save you some of the trim???? Leafy hay is good too....let them pick through it.

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#93937 - 01/13/11 10:34 AM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Jocelyn]
Welshman Offline
Feather

Registered: 01/10/11
Posts: 38
Loc: Wales UK
I wish I lived in Canada.

If I followed your advice I'd be spending time in jail.

Our goverment have banned all animal by products, including milk in some situations.

No kitchen scraps or waste from any food outlet.

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#93938 - 01/13/11 10:47 AM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Welshman]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
Different species / populations, different genetic loads (accumulation of deleterious genes).

R.Okimoto: The coop:Inbreeding Thread #2
Quote:
Inbreeding is the only way to purge detrimental alleles from a population. The less inbreeding that occurs in a species the higher the genetic load. This happens because recessives can build up in a population if they are never made homozygous. If you never inbreed, detrimentals can reach a higher frequency in your population. Chickens probably have a lower genetic load than quail because they have been domesticated in small local populations for 10,000 years and detrimentals have been slowly selected against.

Humans have a pretty low genetic load. It is estimated to be less than half what it is in chickens (around 2.5 instead of 6). Modern humans seem to have had a population bottle neck around 100,000 years ago where the world population may have dropped to only around 1000 effective individuals that can account for all the humans that we see today. Humans have about 1/5 the genetic variation that you find in chimps or just about any other species. It is sort of scarry, but back 100,000 years ago humans may have been just as endangered as most of the great apes are today.


The following from D. Caveny:The Coop:Bantamising a Breed
Quote:
When DeKalb started their inbreeding of fowl in the 1940's they used 25,000 pairs of bro x sis matings. 2 years later they had 250 pairs that were only 75% inbred. This illustrates how many undesireable traits had shown themselves and been eliminated.

Any time there is inbreeding individuals become more homozygous for traits and the bad ones effect viability or fitness to a great degree. My opinion is that inbreeding is a hocus that was championed early last century in an attempt to increase differences of lines prior to crossing in an attempt to maximize heterosis when the lines were crossed. Work in the last half of the 20th century illustrated that good nickability (and viability) could be had when lines were minimally inbred.


So it is possible to significantly reduce genetic load (deleterious genes) in a population, ie high COI (coefficient of inbreeding) doesn't always equate to an unhealthy population. Alot of work though.

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#93939 - 01/13/11 10:59 AM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Jocelyn]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 954
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Jocelyn
Petey will need some extra animal source protein and some extra greens. Where you live will tell you what to feed him. If you live next to a creamery that makes butter, perhaps you can get some buttermilk. If you live close to a meat packing plant, perhaps you can get the gunk that sticks to the band saw when they are cutting meat. It will be a mixture of bone dust, meat and fat, and usually goes into a tub beside the work station. If you know any of the lads that work there, they may save you a bucket full at the end of the work day. I live next to the ocean, so I just go to the shore at low tide with a bucket for "beach goodies"..whatever the tide left in the way of lobster bits, half a cod fish, stranded mussels, any protein foods. Maybe you live next to a feed mill that sells trout or salmon feed, or fox feed....
Green stuff is easy too, grocery stores give away compost scraps here, perhaps they do too where you live??? Then, you can save grass clippings in the summer, or sprout oats for them in the winter, or see if the vegetable growers' co-op is packing vegetables and will save you some of the trim???? Leafy hay is good too....let them pick through it.


But You have to note that greens include enzymes - and enzymes make egg shell brighter(Figure 16). So nutrition could interfere genetics. Maybe there are even epigenetic influences of nutrition.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080219075428/http://www.rirdc.gov.au/pub/shortreps/sr75/sr75.html
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#93942 - 01/13/11 12:01 PM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Redcap]
Jocelyn Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1467
Loc: Canada
Welshman, since you live in Wales, why don't you just phone DEFRA and ask what you can use. Government regulators can be most helpful sometimes. For example, I can go to the vegetable growers' co-op as they handle only vegetable matter and there is no disease risk from meat accidentally included in with the cabbages. By the same token, I can feed fish bits, as long as the eggs are not for human consumption, only for hatching. Fish makes eggs taste funny. Find out what the regulations in your country allow and go from there.

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#93945 - 01/13/11 01:15 PM Re: CREATING A DARK EGGER [Re: Jocelyn]
Welshman Offline
Feather

Registered: 01/10/11
Posts: 38
Loc: Wales UK
Thank you Jocelyn.I shall look into it.

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