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#88951 - 04/14/10 07:03 AM Mottling and Linkages
Wieslaw Offline
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I have posted this before on another thread but decided to make it a thread of its own to make it more visible.

1.On this link:

http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page3.html

there is a table "Autosomal Linkage Group 2 Genes." In this table the mottling gene is placed together with dominant white. Does anybody know on what basis this table is made (where the conclusion came from)? I'm asking because I crossed black Minorca to white Leghorns repeatedly, and I never had any problems with extracting mottling (provided it was there) from white Leghorns. It was too easy to suggest any linkage, so I'm really surprised to find it.

2. In one of the old threads rokimoto says that there may be linkage between e-locus and the mottling gene but not very close. My personal suspicion is that it may be more than that. I crossed F1 from original black mottled Leghorn X brown Leghorn mating. I got mottles galore in F2 but only on the black. Out of 7 chipmunks that hatched only one was moMo; the rest were MoMo. I can't hatch hundreds of chicks (no space, neighbours) to make it statistically significant. Is there anyone out there who had similar experiences? Or quite opposite?

I encourage the unregistered readers to register and contribute if you have experience in the subject. I can't believe nobody tried to move mottles from ER-birds to e+ (or between other e-loci).

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#88952 - 04/14/10 08:55 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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If genes are more than 50 map units apart on the same chromosome, they segregate independently. If I and mo were closely linked, you should not get the combination with mottled expressing that easily. But how would that look?

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#88953 - 04/14/10 10:32 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Black Feather Offline
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I think there is a mistake in this table about Mottling in Linkage Group II. As far as I know, Mottling (Mo) is linked to Extension (E) at 26 cM, as has already been said by Ron Okimoto. As we now know that Extension is MC1R gene, it indicates that Mottling and Extension should both be on Chromosome 11.

Has someone an indication of the linkage between Mottling and other locus from Linkage Group II, as Crest (Cr), Dominant White (I), or Frizzled (F)?


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#88954 - 04/14/10 12:18 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
Wieslaw Offline
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Black Feather, you don't know how glad you have made me. I haven't noticed this "26cM" before. I have always felt that it was something like that. So now I feel like I discovered it myself.

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#88955 - 04/14/10 12:53 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Black Feather Offline
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I think that the probable distance of 26cM between E and Mo has been proposed by Brumbaugh and Hollander, but I need to check.

Brumbaugh, JA and Hollander, WF, A Further Study of the E Pattern Locus in the Fowl, Iowa State Journal of Science, 40:51-64, 1965.

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#90956 - 08/10/10 09:10 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
Sonoran Silkies Offline
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I think the data in http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/linkages.html is probably more current than that in Sellers. Unfortunately, mottle is not listed frown

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#90958 - 08/10/10 10:05 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Sonoran Silkies]
Wieslaw Offline
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Therefore I launched this thread, but as you can see the responses were very few. But the linkage stated here in this thread worked in my case.

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#90980 - 08/11/10 02:01 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Black Feather Offline
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I have checked in chapter "Linkage relationships and gene mapping", by Bitgood and Somes, in the book "Poultry Breeding and Genetics", edited by Crawford.

There is a table with genes showing independent segregation.
In this table, we can see that Mo segregates independently from :
- Cr (Crest, linkage group II)
- D (Duplex comb, linkage group IV)
- Fl (Flightless, linkage group III)
- M (Multiple spurs, linkage group IV)
- Mb (Muffs and beard, chromosome 1 ?)
- Po (Polydactily, linkage group IV)

Nothing else is available I think.




Edited by Black Feather (08/11/10 02:01 AM)

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#90981 - 08/11/10 02:11 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
Wieslaw Offline
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Hi Black Feather, thanks for the information. Just to understand correctly: the information you gave before(26 cM) is still valid?

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#90994 - 08/11/10 12:07 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Black Feather Offline
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Hello,

I was not able to find the Iowa State Journal to check the text of this reference.
But there is no reason to expect that the result of 26 cM between Mo and E was misunderstood in the next publications.

Any confirmation would be great, if someone has families large enough...

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#91023 - 08/13/10 03:44 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
Wieslaw Offline
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Here is an APPEAL TO ALL AMERICANS: please check your family trees(or family trees of your friends), if there are some 'roots' reaching Iowa State Journal. It would be very lovely to have SUCH AN IMPORTANT GENE LINKAGE finally confirmed.

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#91028 - 08/13/10 05:07 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Black Feather Offline
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I have another reference about this linkage :

Brumbaugh & Hollander, Genetics 48:884, 1963

It's an abstract of a presentation in congress, where they say that pourcentage of recombinants between E and Mo is 26% (+/- 4,5%).

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#91058 - 08/14/10 09:06 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
Wieslaw Offline
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Black Feather, you are priceless smile

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#92332 - 10/28/10 11:55 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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I'm hoping for some help with French wink

The following from the French book: Les Poules. Diversite Genetique Visible - page 87

Quote:
J.C.Martin (communication personalle), en croisant des animaux Bantam de Pekin cailloute noir avec des Bantam de Pekin perdrix, obtient une F1 noire; en F2 il denombre 131 noirs cailloutes sur 310 noirs totaux. Cette proportion de 42,26%, proche des 43,84% attendus avec 265 de recombinants, est egalement proche de 7/16c soit 43,75% que donnerait une F2 avec deux alleles recessifs appartenant a deux loci independants.


What I've gathered is that Black Mottled Pekin were crossed with Partridge Pekin. All F1 were black. But then it gets confusing, eg - poor translation:

Quote:
in F2 it denombre(?) 131 Black Mottled on 310 black totals. This proportion of 42.26%, close of the 43.84% awaited with 265 of recombinants, is egalement(?) close of 7/16 is 43.75% that would give one F2 with two alleles recessives belonging has two loci independants.


"131" is 42.26% of 310. So, are they saying that in the F2:

* 131 black mottled
* 179 solid black ?
= 310 E phenotype total (ie both solid black & black mottled).

Then I'm lost in the maths smile

I "think" they are saying (by the last sentence)" that the two loci (mo & E) segregated independently?

P.s. they also mention on another page (p63) the 26% linkage of mo - E (Brumbaugh & Hollander, 1965).

---------------
Unfortunately, personally although I had many mottled & non-mottled (mostly mo/Mo+) phenotype birds with E locus alleles eWh, e+, E (or ER), but they were, eg: e+/e+ mo/Mo+, E/E mo/Mo+, ER/e+ mo/Mo+ etc in foundation birds, so a nightmare to work out if any linkages between mo & E loci.

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#92333 - 10/28/10 12:40 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Just for the fun of it....

J.C.Martin's F1 (E-mo/eb-Mo+) x F1 (E-mo/eb-Mo+)= F2 result:



(* Henk's punnett square image generator)
-------------
If the E locus & mo locus had no linkage (segregated independently):

Gametic Ratio = 1.1.1.1 (ie 1/4 (25%) Mo+ E, 1/4 (25%) Mo+ eb, 1/4 (25%) mo eb, 1/4 (25%) mo E)
Genotypic Ratio = 1:2:1: 2:4:2: 1:2:1

Phenotypic Ratio = 9:3:3:1
9/16 (56.25%) black,
3/16 (18.75%) black mottled,
3/16 (18.75%) partridge (brown -eb),
1/16 (6.25%) partridge mottled (brown –eb/eb mo/mo))

----------------------
If the E locus & mottled locus had 26% linkage, & parental birds were P1: eb-Mo+ plus P2: E-mo linkage, the F1 X F1 (F2) dihybrid crosses gametic ratios would be:
37% eb Mo+,
13% E Mo+,
37% E mo,
13% eb mo

*Phenotypic % = 74% P1 & P2 parental phenotypes (eb-Mo+ or E-mo), 26% crossovers (E-Mo+ or eb-mo).

Any errors in the above?

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#92335 - 10/28/10 03:04 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
RuffEnuff Offline
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no wander i am having such a hard time getting mottled partridge. i am presuming the same goes from moving the mottling from wheaten to partridge.

nice to see you still around the fringes kazjaps.

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#92345 - 10/29/10 04:17 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: RuffEnuff]
Wieslaw Offline
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Kazjaps, I was rather good at math, but rather long time ago. I calculated the number of eb-mottleds this way(provided there is a crossover in 1 of 4 cases(25%): you need 1 out of 4 chicks to allow 2 eb-loci meet. From them 1 out of 4 has had a crossover on the first chromosome , which gives 1 out of 16 chicks. From them 1 out of 4 has had a crossover on the second chromosome. It gives : 1 out of 56 chicks would be eb/eb mo/mo. Do your gametic ratios lead to the same (or close) result? (I sincerely hope my logic holds)

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#92346 - 10/29/10 05:06 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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Glad to see that the green square is working on this board.
Also glad to see you post again, Kaz smile
(Degree of gladness not in that order)

Originally Posted By: Henk69

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#92348 - 10/29/10 05:30 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Sigi Offline
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Translation:
JCMartin (personal communication), crossed black mottled Pekin bantams to partridge Pekins, and got black F1; in F2 he countes 131 black mottled and 310 blacks in total. This proportion of 42,26%, comes near to 43,83% of the expected 265 recombinants, and it equal to almose the 7/16c which is 43,75% which were given in the F2 on two recessive alleles which appear to be on two independent loci.

I've crossed E Mo+/mo po+/po+ Pti1/pti1+(incl. brachydactyly) x eb/eb Mo+/mo Po/Po Pti-2/Pti2.
Of 26 chicks, all mottleds (6) had 4 toes and Pti1.
The others were self choc, had all 5 toes, all Pti1 pure or Pti2 impure (feathered shanks but clean middle toe), and app. 1/3 brachydactyly.

I wondered about why all mottleds had 4 toes instead of 5.
Of the self chocs only one had 4 + 5 toes.
It looked as if the mottleds did not want to have 5 toes.

Owh, PS: of those 6 mottleds, 4 died of Mareks, none of the others.


Edited by Sigi (10/29/10 05:37 AM)

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#92349 - 10/29/10 05:45 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Black Feather Offline
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Hello,

Maybe I can help for translation :

"J.C. Martin (personal communication), by crossing black mottled Pekin Bantam with partridge Pekin Bantam, obtains a black F1; in F2, he counts 131 black mottled out of 310 black in total. This proportion of 42.6%, close to the expected 43.84% with 26% of recombinants, is also close to 7/16th, so 43.75%, that would give a F2 with two recessive alleles belonging to two independant loci."

I agree with the expected values calculated by KazJaps. Then, I'm not so sure to understand how the values of 43.84% or 43.75% have been obtained.

If I follow the gametic ratios provided by KazJaps if E and Mo are linked (26 cM), I find a proportion of 31% of mottled among blacks.

Best regards.

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#92351 - 10/29/10 07:36 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
KazJaps Offline
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Thank you all for the posts, & for the translations smile Helps alot.

So, this is where I got to in the linkages calculations last night, but wasn't sure if they were the correct methodology (still not sure).

If the E locus & mottled locus had 26% linkage, & parental birds were P1: eb-Mo+ plus P2: E-mo linkage, the F1 X F1 (F2) dihybrid crosses gametic ratios would be:
  • 37% eb Mo+,
  • 13% E Mo+,
  • 37% E mo,
  • 13% eb mo


Put this into a punnett square ...



*Phenotypic % = 74 % P1 & P2 parental phenotypes, 26% crossovers
  • 51.69% black,
  • 23.31% partridge,
  • 23.31% black mottled,
  • 1.69% partridge mottled

(*doesn't quite add up there smile but close)

Of all F2, 75% will be black or black mottled (E/E or E/eb based). Of these black/black mottled:
  • 68.92% black,
  • 31.08% black mottled


-------------
If there were no linkages between E & mo loci:

  • 56.25% black,
  • 18.75% partridge,
  • 18.75% black mottled,
  • 6.25% partridge mottled



Of all F2, 75% will be black or black mottled (E/E or E/eb based). Of these black/black mottled:
  • 75% black,
  • 25% black mottled


----------------
So, I got the same as yourself black_feather, ie in Martin's test breeding, 31% Black Mottled expected if a 26% linkage. If there was no linkage, wouldn't the expected percentage be around 25% Black Mottled in E/E or E/eb F2's? So this is why I was confused with the high 42.26 percentage of Black Mottled F2. In this example, wouldn't this suggest a closer linkage than 26%? Would of helped if they had given the partridge/partridge mottled F2 percentages.

-----------------
I'll give the formula below to work out cM - linkage value:
- how to determine linkage map distance (%)



-----------------
-once again, please correct my errors wink

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#92355 - 10/29/10 09:40 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
Sonoran Silkies Offline
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Originally Posted By: Black Feather
I think there is a mistake in this table about Mottling in Linkage Group II. As far as I know, Mottling (Mo) is linked to Extension (E) at 26 cM, as has already been said by Ron Okimoto. As we now know that Extension is MC1R gene, it indicates that Mottling and Extension should both be on Chromosome 11.

Has someone an indication of the linkage between Mottling and other locus from Linkage Group II, as Crest (Cr), Dominant White (I), or Frizzled (F)?


Is there any consolidated list of the gene names as used by breeders with the names used in the scientific literature (example: E = MC1R on Chromosome 11)?

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#92356 - 10/29/10 12:36 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Sonoran Silkies]
Black Feather Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sonoran Silkies

Is there any consolidated list of the gene names as used by breeders with the names used in the scientific literature (example: E = MC1R on Chromosome 11)?


Last year, I have posted a list that have been supplemented by KazJaps :

Chromosome Z:
- Dw : GHR (growth hormone receptor)
- S : SLC45A2 (solute carrier family 45 member 2)

Chromosome 1
- C : TYR (tyrosinase)
- P : SOX5 (SRY-box 5)
- Db : SOX10 (SRY-box 10)

Chromosome 2
- Po : Lmbr1 (limb region 1)

Chromosome 7
- Lav : MLPH (melanophilin)

Microchromosome 11
- E : MC1R (melanocortin-1 receptor)

Microchromosome 24
- W : BCDO2 (beta-carotene dioxygenase 2)

Linkage Group E22C19W28
- I : PMEL17 (Melanocyte protein Pmel 17)


Since that, we can add :

Chromosome Z :
- B : CDKN2A/B (Cyclin-dependent kinas inhibitor 2A/B)


Moreover a publication suggests (but does not prove) some genes for other traits :

- Fm : EDN3 (Endothelin 3, on chromosome 20)

- Po : SHH (Sonic HedgeHog, on chromosome 2), instead of LMBR1

- Id : VCAN (Versican) or B4GALT1 (beta1,4-Galactosyltransferase) on chromosome Z

To be continued...

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#92357 - 10/29/10 01:12 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Black Feather Offline
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Loc: France
Originally Posted By: KazJaps

So, I got the same as yourself black_feather, ie in Martin's test breeding, 31% Black Mottled expected if a 26% linkage. If there was no linkage, wouldn't the expected percentage be around 25% Black Mottled in E/E or E/eb F2's? So this is why I was confused with the high 42.26 percentage of Black Mottled F2. In this example, wouldn't this suggest a closer linkage than 26%? Would of helped if they had given the partridge/partridge mottled F2 percentages.


I have extended the calculus.

If r is the recombination rate between E and Mo, the expected frequency F of mottled among black for this cross should be :

F = (1-r²)/3

With r=0,26, F=0,3108 (31,08%, it's OK)

The problem is that with this formula, I have :

r² = 1-3F

With F=0,4226 (42,26%), r² is negative, there is no solution !

There is probably a problem somewhere...

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#92368 - 10/30/10 04:22 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kazjaps
Would of helped if they had given the partridge/partridge mottled F2 percentages.

My thought exactly. The most important part of the experiment is missing in my opinion. I can see that you've reached the same result as I, as far as the number of mottled eb birds is concerned.

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#92370 - 10/30/10 03:02 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
RuffEnuff Offline
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it would be also interesting to know how the data was gathered because on new hatched chicken down homo mottling can be hard to tell and so can normal no mottling compared to hetero mottling. possible the reason no percentages of the partridge were given was because you cannot see it on chicken down.

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#92379 - 10/31/10 07:50 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: RuffEnuff]
KazJaps Offline
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Thank you black_feather for the new formulas. Much easier than my long hand way wink. Yes, it just doesn't add up.

It would make more sense the breeding results if the total E/E or E/eb segregates (black or black mottled) were 441, ie add 131 black mottled + 310 solid blacks = 441 total. This would make black mottled segregates around 29.7% & solid blacks around 70.3%. The recombination rate / linkage percentage would be approx. 33.01%. But, that is not what was stated (ie 42.7% black mottled segregates, not 29.7%). It's a shame about the discrepancies, as this test breeding result would be very handy to know.

Thanks again for your help black_feather. Much appreciated.

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#92380 - 10/31/10 07:55 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Yes Ruff - hopefully they waited till birds reached adulthood, as it's very unreliable relying on chick down or juvenile feathers alone. Eg, one of my family lines of Black Mottled d'Uccles were nearly solid black as day-olds, & mottled up very late (& didn't go through the mottled 'penguin' juvenile pattern).
Some lines of solid black or birchen grey Japs had much more cream/white on the down, yet none were carriers of the mottled gene. You have to compare homozygous family lines of mo/mo & Mo+/Mo+ before crossing. Make sure no other modifiers of chick down & adult plumage are segregating randomly (eg modifiers that produce white undercolour, white flights, sickles/base of tails, neck, etc of adults - with no mo gene present).

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#92391 - 11/01/10 12:38 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Hi guys,
I have also struggled through this, longhand like Kazjaps, using Excel and concur with her results. So going back to the sentence, I was wondering why the author mentions 7/16 or 43.75%. I reckon that none of us (myself included) understands the last part of the sentence correctly "que donnerait une F2 avec deux alleles recessifs appartenant a deux loci independants."

The 7/16 can only be the Black mottled (18.75%) plus Partridge (18.75%) plus Partridge mottled (6.25%) with independent assortment. 18.75+18.75+6.25=43.75%.
These are the phenotypes carrying at least 1 pair of recessive alleles (not quite the same as "deux alleles recessifs"), namely E E mo mo, E eb mo mo, eb eb Mo+ Mo+, eb eb mo Mo+, eb eb mo mo.

Why he throws these together I do not understand.

And when you do the same exercise with the 26% linkage, (23.31% black mottled, 23.31% partridge, 1.69% partridge mottled), the total comes to 48.31%, not 43.84%.

Google translation:
Quote:
This proportion of 42.26%, close to the expected 43.84% with 26% recombinants, is also close to 7/16 or 43.75%, which would give an F2 with two recessive alleles belonging to two independent loci.


I work as a translator so I know that machine translations are VERY ROUGH and usually miss and warp important points. So either something is lost in translation or the author made a mistake, or both.

I have his e-mail address. Anyone brave enough to ask?

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#92392 - 11/01/10 12:55 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Chook-in-Eire]
Wieslaw Offline
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Hi chook, I'm brave enough, but I don't remember my French. Black Feather has already translated this(page 2), but not being a native speaker, I have doubts what is actually the conclusion in the text: ARE they linked OR NOT according to the authors?

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#92398 - 11/01/10 05:15 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
I have doubts what is actually the conclusion in the text: ARE they linked OR NOT according to the authors?

Je ne sais pas. grin If the translation is halfway correct then he seems to be saying that the ratio he got fits rather well both with the expected ratio if there is 26% linkage and with the ratio if there is no linkage. That is completely illogical.


Edited by Chook-in-Eire (11/02/10 04:43 AM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#92402 - 11/02/10 02:23 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Black Feather Offline
Bantam

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 57
Loc: France
Hello,

Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Hi chook, I'm brave enough, but I don't remember my French. Black Feather has already translated this(page 2), but not being a native speaker, I have doubts what is actually the conclusion in the text: ARE they linked OR NOT according to the authors?


The conclusion is that there is no conclusion about linkage or not.

But to understand the text completely, you need to read the entire chapter about mottling. Because there is two theories described just before :

- there is one locus (Mopi) for three alleles : Mottling (mo), Pied (mopi) and wt (Mo+)

- there is two locus : one for Mottling (mo/Mo+) and one for Pied (pi/Pi+)

The reference to two independant loci with two recessive alleles is concerning this hypothesis of one locus for Mottling, and one for Pied, and not E and Mottling.

Then, we have seen that it seems difficult to understand the proportion of black mottled with two loci (E and Mo), linked (at 26 cM) or not.
But I've not yet done the calculus with three loci (E, Mo, Pi).

I'm starting investigations to recover additional information about this cross from the author.



Edited by Black Feather (11/02/10 02:24 AM)

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#92403 - 11/02/10 03:07 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
RuffEnuff Offline
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thankyou blackfeather that will be very interesting, looking forward to it.

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#92405 - 11/02/10 04:41 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: RuffEnuff]
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Hi Blackfeather,
Thank you for providing the context. I find it quite hard to read French. It'll be interesting to see what you can find out.

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#92406 - 11/02/10 07:53 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Chook-in-Eire]
Black Feather Offline
Bantam

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 57
Loc: France
Hello,

For the second hypothesis (two locus having more or less the same effect on the pattern : Mo and Pi), we can have the same king of argument.

If you cross animals black mottled (E/E mo/mo pi/pi) with partridge (ebc/ebc Mo+/Mo+ Pi+/Pi+), in F2, you obtain (regardless of E) :

- 3/16th of mo/mo (pi/Pi+ or Pi+/Pi+)
- 3/16th of pi/pi (mo/Mo+ or Mo+/Mo+)
- 1/16th of mo/mo pi/pi
- remaining animals are all Mo+ Pi+ (homozygous or heterozygous)

Then, we have this proportion of 7/16th of mottled among black (or among partridge) if we think that we can't distinguish between mo/mo, pi/pi or mo/mo pi/pi mottled animals.

This result implies that E is independant from both Mo and Pi. But even if E is linked to Mo or Pi, it does not change a lot the final proportion.

If r is the recombination rate between E and Mo (or Pi !), the proportion F of mottled among black in F2 is :

- for r = 0,5 (independance) : F = 7/16 = 0,4375
- for r = 0 (full linkage) : F = 7/12 = 0,5833
- for r = 0,26 (proposed for E - Mo) : F = 0,5439

Then our case is more compatible with three loci independant (E, Mo and Pi).

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#92409 - 11/02/10 12:35 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Albeit that mottling and pied are visually indistinguishable a cross between a mottled bird and a pied bird would yield 100% solid black offspring.
Has anyone ever obtained such results?
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#92411 - 11/02/10 01:11 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Hen-Gen]
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NO, and they can change from one to the other over time. And I have birds ranging from this:



to this


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#92421 - 11/03/10 01:11 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Hen-Gen]
Black Feather Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hen-Gen
Albeit that mottling and pied are visually indistinguishable a cross between a mottled bird and a pied bird would yield 100% solid black offspring.
Has anyone ever obtained such results?


In the very same part about mottling on the Coquerelle's book, there is two conflicting examples, reflecting the difficulty to determine the genetic backgroung of mottling phenotype.

The first one is a cross by Serebrosky (1926) between Houdan and Orloff, both displaying pie phenotype or mottling. The F1 was entirely black, without white spots.

The second one is a cross by Carefoot (1987) between a dwarf male pied exchequer Leghorn and a dwarf mottled female Ancona : he obtains a small F1 (5 males, 3 females), all having white spots.

Other contradictory results available somewhere ?

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#92423 - 11/03/10 04:01 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
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Thankyou, Black Feather. I was familiar with Carefoots results but Serebroskys was completely new to me. Its certainly very hard to clarify the matter.
Yes, Weislaw, mottling is very variable in its expression. But then I suppose we should not be surprised because a number of genes exhibit similar variation in chickens.
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#92425 - 11/03/10 08:22 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Black Feather]
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My experiences:

Exchequer Jap x unrelated solid Black Jap = all solid black F1

Exchequer Jap x unrelated Splash Millefleur d'Uccle = all Blue Mottled phenotype F1 (of decent exhibition mottling quality).

So, the Exchequer pattern gene was either the same mo allele as the mottled pattern gene, or another allele of the same locus.

Here's a thread where I discuss the traits of the Exchequer Japs & Mottled d'Uccle lines:

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=33218

Here's one of the Exchequer Japs:


* with outcrosses to unrelated solid black/blue Jap lines, all F2 or BC1, etc homozygotes had the Exchequer pattern - never Mottled.

* the Mottled/Millefleur d'Uccles similarly never produced the Exchequer pattern, only Mottled. Although, some lines had the flaw of excess white in flights, etc.

My bet is that modifying genes of base colour significantly influence mottling/exchequer pattern.

Eg, the following bird with excess white at base of tail/flights:
(nothing to do with the mo gene - a problem in Mo+/Mo+ yellow-legged solid black lines also)


But, I'm not saying that there are not multiple mutation alleles of the mo locus. Never tested.

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#92426 - 11/03/10 11:17 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
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I bet this white-tail-base gene is related to the extinct black white tail japanese.

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#92427 - 11/03/10 01:09 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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Kazjaps, what do you say to this( Ruff's postings from July 12 and 15)?

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88862&page=7

You can try to cross your exchequer to a bird from a line, which has never been crossed to mottleds(for example raw e+). If you make F2 from the resulting offspring, most probably you will get the same result as I did . It is described here(posting from June 01), ie majority of birds with few and small mottles.

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88862&page=3

My point is, that it can be an accumulation of some minor modifiers that is at play here.

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#92430 - 11/04/10 02:25 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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Just out of curiosity: when this experiment was carried out? I.m asking , because I was convinced that the pied gene was dead and buried long time ago. Why did they decide to dig it up to the surface again? And I,m not quite clear about the method. How are they trying to investigate the hypothetical pied gene by crossing one type of mottleds to non-mottleds? Enlightenment, anyone?
Next thing that comes to my mind is: I've expierienced already a few times, that some experiments from the past just can't be reproduced again. Some authors were producing some results very convincingly, and then the results proved to be either a pure fabrication, or a total misinterpretation or misunderstanding of some sort. Although I don't have a place to carry out any additional projects, I would like to repeat Serebrowsky's cross. I hope I can find some Orloff eggs next spring, but I can't find any breeders here. Anyone with Orloffs in Europe?

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#92432 - 11/05/10 12:56 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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I bet that the modern orloffs have been recreated since then.
Being mottled like all other breeds.

We know that some mottled chickens can be very little mottled. A chicken laymen scientist could count such a bird as not mottled. For instance the japanese with the white tailbase. No one experiences that as a form of mottling... wink
White flecks on mammals (bib?) are also hardly interpreted as a form of white spotting. Theories like "ran out of pigment" are common. I also tend to take the older science with a grain of salt. No disrespect ... smile

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#92541 - 11/09/10 08:59 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
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While I have the link....

The coop: The difference between mottle and exchequer patterns

D. Caveny (2002)....
Quote:
I have one hen from my crossing of Black Leghorn (E/?, Mo+/Mo+, b+/b+, s+/s+, Id/Id) on Fifty-five Flowery Leghorn (e+/e+, mo/mo, B/B, S/S, Id/Id)which appears to be an Exchequer. The balance of the F2's arrear to be Anconas. I therefore suspect that there is another gene besides E and mo involved in the Exchequer. I have only had small numbers because I was testing Clive's theory on Exchequers. I don't have the time (nor the money) to make lots of crosses and raise large numbers of birds which I don't want so will probably leave this mystery to others.

Quote:
Just a note that I see with the 55 Flowery Leghorns and their crosses. As the birds get older the mottling seems to make birds have more white with each molt. Also there seems to be some other interaction which sometimes occurs when crossing them with non-mottled and non-barred lines [lines known not to have traits from test crosses] some of the offspring in the F1 appear to be mottled. So many things to see and so little coop space to look further!


Hutt's "Genetics of the Fowl" (1949) (under Mottling heading, p215) mentions briefly Serebrovsky's (1926) study of crossing Mottled Orloffs with Mottled Houdans (producing only solid-colored progeny with no mottling). In the "Pied" section (p215 - 216), Hutt mentions a study by Punnett & Pease (1927) whereby crossing Barred Rocks & Black Sumatra, pied pattern were produced in the F2. Hutt believed that crossing pied (exchequer) to mottled would produce solid black birds, believing that these were two independent pairs of recessive genes. But I couldn't figure out from the text why Hutt believed this (ie what previous study he had in mind)?

Here's a closeup scan of Exchequer Jap / Mottled d'Uccle feathers:


Wieslaw, I'll try to look at that other thread shortly wink

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#93934 - 01/13/11 09:50 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
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In Muir and Aggrey (ed.) (2003) Poultry Genetics, Breeding and Biotechnology, CABI Publishing (page 499):
Quote:
....and extension of eumelanin (MC1R) is not located on chromosome 1 but located on microchromosome 11 (Takeuchi et al., 1996; Sazanov et al., 1998; Kerje et al., 2003, unpublished).

So, if there is a close linkage between the mo locus and E locus (MCR1), it would mean that mo is on microchromosome 11.

But, I was reading the following article "European Graduate School in Animal Breeding and Genetics: PhD Projects", and in Table 1 they have the mo locus listed as on Chromosome 10.
Has the mo locus been sequenced? Or has another close linkage been found with mo locus and another known locus on Chromosome 10? Or was there a typo in the above article?

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#93940 - 01/13/11 11:06 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
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Would be great if the columbian gene would be identified... wink

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#93944 - 01/13/11 01:11 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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KazJaps, I think it has to be a mistake of some sort. I could not find any reference combining these two things on the Internet . Generally chromosome 10 is a very anonymous one and no visible traits has ever been ascribed to this chromosome(not that I know of), so I can't imagine what linkage they could use. Additionaly, there is a mistake in the table 1 on the linked site. As far as I understand they ascribe the black band before the white mottle to the action of Co, which is DEFINATELY NOT TRUE. I'm ready to bet my money on it. None of my e+/e+ mo/mo carry Columbian, but many of them has the black band, and even 2 (half is matte and half is shiny).
I've read that many of the microchromosomes are so small and all alike(no visible numbers on them smile ), so it is difficult to differentiate them.(And maybe Sweden has a different way to enumerate them smile
Just because something was written in ph.d. doesn't mean it is free from mistakes.

Look at this pullet and judge by yourself if she carries Columbian(October 25)

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=89474&page=4

I will try to make a better close-up tomorrow.

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#94037 - 01/19/11 10:36 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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As promised an updated picture. No Columbian , no nothing.
It was difficult to show the shiny part of the black band, but you can see it if you look for it. (my wife is tired already after 2 seconds of shooting; just to give you an idea what I have to go through each time I make a picture)



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#94042 - 01/19/11 06:48 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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She's a beautiful hen. The black mottling band is clear to see.

Lol, so your arms are not long enough to take photos yourself (poor suffering wife smile ). Although I must admit, it is a bit of a skill -juggling act, doing it all yourself.

-----------------

I found an old photo of a Mottled Quail pullet:


As not all feathers are mottled, you can see that it's only black spangled on tips where there is white-tipped mottling (ie, only black mottling band).
-----------------

There are some mottled Dark (double-laced) Cornish (they've called them Spangled, as in Spangled OEG) at Feathersite:

Spangled Cornish Pullet, Spangled Cornish Hen, Spangled Cornish Rooster

The pullet has remnant double-lacing, plus black mottling band. It's too hard to see if any lacing in the hen. Each mottled feather has black banding.
The rooster is like a Dark Cornish with mottling (similar to Spangled OEG, but more melanisation).

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#94059 - 01/20/11 11:30 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: KazJaps
She's a beautiful hen


She says thank you(blushing).

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#94081 - 01/21/11 06:55 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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Quote:
"European Graduate School in Animal Breeding and Genetics: PhD Projects", and in Table 1 they have the mo locus listed as on Chromosome 10.


In that last article, end of page 3:
Quote:
Except for CO, the loci to be studied have been mapped already and the objective is to narrow the mapping interval and to reduce the candidate genes to one, .....

So this suggests that they have mapped mo approximately, & probably do know the chromosome that it is on.

For those who haven't read the article Table 1, 6 mutations are listed: B, mo, Pg, Db, Co, Ml. Of these, Pg, Co, Ml & mo haven't been DNA sequenced (Pg, Ml on Chromosome 1).

------------------------
Previous researchers tested Co and mo mutations on ASIP (Agouti) locus, but both mutation alleles weren't located on this locus.

Characterization of Japanese Quail yellow as a Genomic Deletion Upstream of the Avian Homolog of the Mammalian ASIP (agouti) Gene.
(Genetics 178: 777–786 (February 2008))
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/full/178/2/777
Quote:
ASIP expression in chicken: Dorsal and ventral skin samples were taken from 10 chickens, 2 males with a mottled phenotype and 8 females with a Columbian phenotype.

......The presence of an apparently functional ASIP gene in chickens poses the question of why no good candidates for mutations at this gene are known among the large numbers of described pigmentation variants (Smyth 1990).


The ASIP locus is found on Chromosome 20:

Recessive black Is Allelic to the yellow Plumage Locus in Japanese Quail and Associated With a Frameshift Deletion in the ASIP gene.
(Genetics 178: 771–775 (February 2008))
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248368/pdf/GEN1782771.pdf
Quote:
The Y locus in the Japanese quail was mapped on the QL10 linkage group homologous to GGA20 in chicken (Gallus gallus) (Miwa et al. 2005), where an ASIP-like sequence was found (Klovins and Schioth 2005)
.

Ref:
Mapping of plumage colour and blood protein loci on the microsatellite linkage map of the Japanese quail.
(Miwa et. al. 2005)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2052.2005.01335.x/full

Agouti-related proteins (AGRPs) and agouti-signaling peptide (ASIP) in fish and chicken.
Klovins J, Schiöth HB., 2005.
(Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2005 Apr;1040:363-7.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15891063

----------------------

So, it shouldn't be too long before mo, Ml, Pg & Co loci are found / sequenced.

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#95130 - 03/13/11 09:17 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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Just want to show you a video of a small flock of Kosova Long Crowing Roosters (from Albania). Just pay attention to the range of mottling , from nearly totally white to nearly totally black and everything in between(just like mine, but I don't have birds with big patches of one colour , like some of the hens here).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgIXsVnfJ9o

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#95131 - 03/13/11 11:16 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Manok Offline
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The edge between white and black on those Kosova hens is very crisp. With a rooster that I have it's much more "fuzzy".



His father is:

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#95159 - 03/14/11 06:44 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Manok]
Sigi Offline
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"For those who haven't read the article Table 1, 6 mutations are listed: B, mo, Pg, Db, Co, Ml. Of these, Pg, Co, Ml & mo haven't been DNA sequenced (Pg, Ml on Chromosome 1)."

This could explain 'civilized' mille fleur which I consider to be a combined feather pattern: spangled Pg, Db, Ml, mottled.
This explains regional interrupted autosomal barring (pencilling as on hamburg) in F1 birds from a cross mille fleur x partridge.
(And just like tollbunt: laced Co Pg Ml (Db on polish), mottled).
You can make tollbunt on Cochin bantam as well when it's either random (only Co, mo) or civilized mille fleur (x laced). In only the civilized mille fleur F1 shows pencilling as on hamburg as well in certain parts of the chicken (abdomen) although there is Co present, which you can see on the breast of the hen best as horse shoe shaped pattern. Interesting.

Mottled can suffer from 'grey with age' from horses, I call this hysterical mottling. Its called 'harlequin' on Cochin bantams in the USA. Mostly white birds with regional pattern of random mille fleur. This hysterical mottled is in the serama as well.
I think its an extra gene which makes mottled so over-active.
Some mottled are already white in youth feathers, others 'grey' only after each moult and others stay the same and won't become ever totally uncoloured.
There must be a gene which prevents mottled to switch off.
And it works more in wings and tail because those grow fastest compared to body feathers.
I'm still busy with mottled... *

*) I want to know how regional mottling (only a few parts on the bird e.g. head region, or only tail region) works. It does inherit the same regions, the rest of the body has no mottling. And I want to know more of patched mottling: a white bird clearly by mottled, which has patches of unaltered feathers without mottles. This mostly in hens and less in roosters, although I had a white rooster with only coloured wings (without mottles, not even in primaries and secondaries).


Edited by Sigi (03/14/11 06:48 PM)

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#95229 - 03/18/11 03:13 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Sigi]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sigi
This could explain 'civilized' mille fleur which I consider to be a combined feather pattern: spangled Pg, Db, Ml, mottled.


I find it rather improbable. Mille fleur pattern by itself is by no means civilized in all cases. It can be just as random as mottling on black birds. You can have regular mille fleur and 'wild' mille fleur from the same birds. Mille fleur pattern is rather easy to make from scratch, whilst proper spangled is extremely hard to make from scratch. So it just doesn't fit here. As motling does not normally attack all feathers on the body, it is then thinkable , that when combined with spangling, it could give a mixture of feathers ended either with white or black. It should be easy to check by crossing to Appenzeller. If your theory holds true, the offspring should be perfectly spangled.

Manok, I think your bird got a serious electric shock at some point in his life smile

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#95245 - 03/19/11 08:13 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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I'll put Mau's website link here:
Sedgwick Wyandottes

-for those who want to compare Spangled (Pg-Ml-Db) and Millefleur (eb Co mo) and Mottled Spangled (Pg-Ml-Db mo) and Laced Millefleur - Tolbunt (eb Co Pg-Ml mo).

Plus the following paper has photos of barred mottled silver duckwing genotype /phenotype (e+/e+, B/B, S/S, mo/mo)- Silverudd's Silver Fifty-Five Flowery stock:

Silverudd‘s Multiple Cock Shift System (SMCSS)
MARTIN SILVERUDD
Hereditas 77: 183-196 (1974)
Institute of Genetics, University of Lund, Sweden
full paper

* The roosters are basically white.

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#95247 - 03/19/11 10:07 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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incredible, tolbunt wyandottes!

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#95250 - 03/19/11 10:41 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
CJR Online   content
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Save, Save, Save, Thanks so much, CJR

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#95265 - 03/20/11 04:22 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: CJR]
Sigi Offline
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Wieslaw I think Mau's website tells you all.
I am busy with this for several years on the cochin bantams.
I used a Sabelpoot/feather footed bantam with excellent spangling/mottling some 8 years ago.
It went wrong via the random mille fleur WHEATEN line of the cochin bantams, since wheaten destroyes the spangled pattern.
A cross to black mottled cochin bantam from germany should restore eb. F3 of this cross is a hen I use this year x wheaten random mille fleur rooster. He is not in a very good shape, hope I get some more eb birds this year. Of course they have much too much black still in feathers, and lots of hackle black.
Another idea I had was to put red cochin bantam in them as well since mahogany 'helps' forming a spangle, but that's a more water lily leaf shaped spangle. I want Pg,Db,Ml spangles.
You can see on Mau's site she came pretty far with the silver spangled ones, but she's busy for years now.

Henk, there will be Tollbunt Wyandottes this year I think in Holland, the recipe is on my website for 2 years now, this is the third season, some breeders are busy with it, lol

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#95528 - 04/03/11 01:26 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Sigi]
Wieslaw Offline
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I decided to put it here, in case the site and the pictures disappear. Here you have the ultimate prove, that millefleur pattern is NOT on spangled - for those who still have doubts.

Originally Posted By: Mau
I. had always supposed millefleur to be spangled plus mottled, but looking at mottled spangled it obviously isn't. The birds I breed that come closest to millefleur initially look like barred or black tailed buffs (Db through some probably have Co too) with no evidence of Ml. As they grow they develop little black teardrops which are quite unlike normal spangled.


A young millefleur type




On the next picture you can se, that mottled spangled gives feathers which can have white or black ends.




It was borrowed from here:
http://www.sedgwickcommon.co.uk/tri-colours_miillefleur_spangled.htm

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#96475 - 05/18/11 05:58 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Just wanted to show you MY FIRST mottled silver duckwing pullet EVER(after 1 'million' of cockerels and brown mottled pullets). So here she is(and she is a cutie):




She may have 1 shot of Db, as her eye stripe is suspiciously narrow.

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#96481 - 05/19/11 12:43 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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I don't get all the Db you guys suspect in your chickens.
There are symptoms, undeniable symptoms. I never see those... wink

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#96482 - 05/19/11 12:58 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Henk, if you have 2 duckwings that apparently look 'pure' but throw strange male offspring, then you begin to suspect 'something is wrong' and look for subtle differences. That's how I learned it.

Normally my e+ pullets have very long and thick eye stripe.


Edited by Wieslaw (05/19/11 01:00 AM)

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#96483 - 05/19/11 03:06 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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So you get blacktail roosters?

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#96484 - 05/19/11 03:33 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
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I may be having a 'senior moment' here but surely the white breast is the indicator that either Co or Db are present?

(Senior moment = English euphemism for the mental defectiveness associated with senility).
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#96485 - 05/19/11 04:00 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Hen-Gen]
Wieslaw Offline
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Henk, that is what I got out of duckwings(July 16, 2010:

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88862&page=7

A cock with totally burnt orange breast(and orange all over the body)

Hen-Gen, e+/e+ mo/mo birds in one of my lines very often have totally white breasts in first chick feathers. It will 'disappear' later. Compare mottled leghorns on feathersite(close to the bottom, chick on the right).

I will later make a picture of silver duck pullet with one shot of Co to compare side by side.

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Leghorns/BRKLeghorns.html

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#96486 - 05/19/11 04:19 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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I'd not spotted that 10 week old chick before. So thats interesting then that both that chick and some of your strain come white breasted. Very anomolous! At what age does it revert to the salmon/red colour?


Edited by Hen-Gen (05/19/11 04:20 AM)
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#96487 - 05/19/11 05:15 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Hen-Gen]
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As they change to next feathers. At the same time they will get white feathers in their tails.

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#96489 - 05/19/11 08:08 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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I have found some old pictures

Two mottled cockerels e+/e+ mo/mo in first set of feathers. Normal on the right, "too much" on the left.



Breasts



Normal



"Too much"



The birds with which I started this line were all normal.

The one with too much has probably one shot of Db, making him orange.

Here he is (shortly before culling)







His breast was originally white as on normal e+e+momo

It was taken from this thread:

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88862&page=8

Here are two pullets, you can see the white breast on one of them




Edited by Wieslaw (05/19/11 08:49 AM)

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#96492 - 05/19/11 09:47 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Very informative, thankyou. Pity they don't retain the white breast. They are almost better Silver Quail than are conventional Silver Quail!
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#96495 - 05/19/11 01:59 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Henk69
I don't get all the Db you guys suspect in your chickens.
There are symptoms, undeniable symptoms. I never see those...


Henk, this is THE WHOLE POINT, that you don't see it, because there is not much to see on an e+ hen with one dose of Db, and it can be overlooked. I have written it several times recently, but risking being acused for senility I repeat again:



Originally Posted By: Bush Turkey
Db will dilute/lighten the colour of wildtype down. It is a columbian like restrictor in males though you will often get mossiness around the thighs and sometimes the breast, the females are wild type slightly different shade to the salmon breast but have a yellow ochre shade throughout the rest of their wild type plumage.

You wont pick Db on eWh chick down, but the adult males are a cleaner lighter shade than their wild type counterparts, I can't comment on females as I have only had e+/eWh females here. I prefer to use wild type in my Ginger Reds.

I know someone who does breed their Ginger Reds on eWh background I can ask them.

When eWh is involved (in OEG) they often throw washed out sports, the males have plumage colour that looks like a wheaten hen and the females almost white.

ER Db chicks have brown down, and often grow up with a sort of chocalate brown plumage especially in females.


Originally Posted By: Ron Okimoto
Db was first characterized because it would turn normally black down brownish. That is why a columbian restrictor came to be known by what looks like a misnomer of dark brown (Db). The columbian restriction ability of Db only became known when it was crossed to nonblack breeds. It is probably the same gene that was described as Mi for its ability to disrupt black deposition.

In my experience you get a buttercup like down pattern when you combine Db with ebeb, but it doesn't affect e+e+ as much, and Dbdb+ e+e+ chicks can look nearly wild-type. The Db e+ males are columbian restricted in their adult plumage, but the Dbdb+ e+e+ females have salmon breasts and look fairly normal, but if you have a side-by-side comparison the Db salmon breast is a darker burnt color, but the shade is subtle.


The quotes are from this thread:

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=35576#Post35576

There is one thread more , where Ron Okimoto is writing about orange tint to the breast(unless I remember wrong). I would second orange-ish version, not the darker one.

Furthermore, I can't see very clearly that Db turn salmon breast to white on silver(as Co does). On my birds there is whitish dilusion in the middle of the breast , but there is salmon on the sides of the breast at the moment. I will observe it.

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#96501 - 05/19/11 11:47 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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very interesting that you think that Db explains the white breast in the chickens wieslaw. i wander if it explains the penguin like feathers in the ER mottle?

i always thought (i am sure i have read somewhere) that Db can push the black to the edge of the feather as in a spangle on the black red and it also enhance the orangeness of the gold. it is episatic on hens when hetero but not on roosters. i wander if in its hetero state on an ER female it can still cause the white breast during the chicken feather phase?


Edited by RuffEnuff (05/19/11 11:49 PM)
Edit Reason: due to typos

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#96504 - 05/20/11 12:20 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: RuffEnuff]
Henk69 Offline
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e+ Db hens should not have a salmon breast even when het Db/db+

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#96505 - 05/20/11 01:13 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
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Well Henk, that was my belief too but Ron O's statement above (quoted by Wieslaw) clearly says otherwise.
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#96506 - 05/20/11 05:03 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Hen-Gen]
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No, it doesn't wink
The salmon is a burnt shade, thus columbian restricted looking.

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#96514 - 05/20/11 03:53 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
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Hen-Gen, here is the differnce between e+/e+ mo/mo co/co S and e+/e+ Mo/Mo S Co/co:

Mottled on the left





Co/co



mo/mo



Silver mottled duckwing cockerel:



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#96521 - 05/21/11 01:12 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Thanks Wieslaw. Excellent demonstration of the effect of eumelanin restriction/pheaomelanin extension that even a single copy of Co gives.
Is it recorded anywhere (apart from by you) that mottling on the SD genotype gives a white breast at first? I have never read this anywhere!
Also interested to see whether any of your Db/db, mo/mo birds develop a partial silver millefleur effect as one might expect if these alleles were on eb.
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#96534 - 05/22/11 03:20 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Hen-Gen]
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Hen-Gen, no, I have not read it anywhere. And my 'own birds ' do not show it. The birds that show it were bought as eggs for blood refreshment from a 'neighbor' of yours. All his mottleds show this trait. They call them Red Mottled Leghorn(one of those stupid names,I wonder what will they call the real red mottleds)
I think he has them from Rupert Stephenson.

http://www.leghornfertilehatchingeggs.com/
http://www.leghornfertilehatchingeggs.com/PhotosLeghorns.htm
http://www.leghornfertilehatchingeggs.com/ShowResults.htm

Although the hens did not show red, there is something red that shows up when crossed to 'my own' birds. I will make some pictures later.

In one of my next postings (have to make some pictures first) I will come with new theory/observations.


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#96589 - 05/25/11 03:11 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hen-Gen
Also interested to see whether any of your Db/db, mo/mo birds develop a partial silver millefleur effect as one might expect if these alleles were on eb.


I have not had on silver yet, but I had one cock on gold:



As young:










The only place with black was hidden under the neck hackle:

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#96726 - 06/03/11 03:29 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Here is my observation I promised before: In a bunch of chicks fathered by my e+/e+ mo/mo cock and from mixture of mothers, 5 mo/mo chicks popped up with unusual chick down patterns, which I ascribe to action of Db. 2 of the cockerels had distorted, zigzagging chipmunk stripes, and 3 totally new for me(similar to usual black mottled, but fox red colour(pictures tomorrow). Unlike normal e+/e+ mo/mo chicks, which never show white colour in first chick tail feathers with me , all the 5 chicks showed it. WHAT ABOUT THAT ?? Anybody with similar experience?

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#96746 - 06/05/11 02:59 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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pictures to my previous post(pay attention to the tails.All chicks have a father with e+/e+ mo/mo plus 1 dose of melanizers ):

1) Chick 1(pay attention: change from totally red to silver barred):






2) Chick 2 was nearly identical to chick 1 at hatch, the white spots on the head were missing.




Chick 3 had the same pattern as chick 1, but in grey instead of fox red. The chick was culled because of being micro. It had B/b and mo/mo and went increasingly white





continues....



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#96750 - 06/05/11 10:32 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Chick 4, pay attention to distorted stripes on the back








And finally chick 5. This one is the most sensational one.He hatched very similar to chick 4(light with distorted stripes on the back,but MELANIZED very well!!





So summing up: if it IS Db that is floating around in the gene pool(which I strongly believe it does), then:

1) in one dose on e+ (and also other backgrounds) it allows white feathers in the first chick tail feathers when mo/mo
2) in the chick stage, it can't fight certain melanizers

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#96759 - 06/05/11 11:26 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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ad 1) i.m.o. white tail feathers are always possible in a mottled.
ad 2) You mean: because there is chipmunk striping?

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#96762 - 06/06/11 02:21 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Henk,

ad 1) based on observations of more than 150 chicks, WITH ME pure e+/e+ mo/mo chicks NEVER show white FIRST CHICK TAIL FEATHERS. I'm not talking about black mottled, where white first chick tail feathers are 'normal'

ad 2) the 'chipmunk stripes' were distorted beyond recognition. I don't know other genes than Db, which can both distort dorsal stripes AND BE PRESENT in my gene pool at the same time. From observations of chick down photos, it seems to me, that in case of strong distortion of dorsal stripes, there is Db always present(not necessarily 'alone', but in combination with other genes).

The paradox here is : although Db is described as strong restrictor of eumelanin in males(which it usually is), it does not apply to some melanizers(as the picture shows). This makes it similar to Co, which also can be melanized, but mainly in females . Compare: Castellana Codorniz in this document:

http://www.inia.es/gcontrec/pub/CATALOGO_INIA_Gallinas_1290596384804.pdf

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#96771 - 06/06/11 07:16 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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What about wheaten's effect on the chipmunk stripes?

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#96778 - 06/06/11 04:42 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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I don't actually know how wheaten affects chipmunk stripes, neither pure nor in combination with other genes. There is a theoretical possibility that 4 of my birds can carry wheaton, as their father was half buff. But up to now nothing even remotely resembling wheaton has segregated. On the other hand there are multiple examples of presence of Db. Pictures tomorrow.

PS. I suddenly recall hatching e+ X buff at some point. The chicks hatched stripeless, dirtish buff.


Edited by Wieslaw (06/07/11 05:09 AM)
Edit Reason: added Ps

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#96804 - 06/07/11 03:57 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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I base my view on Db being present in my gene pool on these birds:

Bird 1: born chipmunk, the black in the hackles stripped nearly totally off.





Bird 2: born chipmunk. The black dots in the hackles are supposed to be a sign of Db(according to Mau in old threads)




Bird 3: born blackish brown. Distinct autosomal barring until adulthood.





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#96805 - 06/07/11 04:02 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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Bird 4: restrictions of eumelanin on the body plus spangles:





Bird 5: born blackish brown(mother black Leghorn), restriction of eumelanin:




The birds 2, 3 , 4, and 5 had the same father, which was half buff Minorca.



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#96807 - 06/07/11 04:49 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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Wieslaw,
I am not arguing the presence of Db in all of these birds, I have a hen very much similar to your hen number 2 with the dark spots in the hackle and mine showed Db restriction in her offspring when I paired her with a Co/Co rooster.
But (IMO) bird 3 is ER, Pg, db+


Edited by Poultch (06/07/11 04:50 PM)

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#96813 - 06/08/11 01:51 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Poultch]
Henk69 Offline
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I thought bird 3 was the only convincing Db case... wink
Columbian-like restriction on a birchen base. On the other hand: I see duckwing... wink
(which may be caused by the columbian-like restrictor)

Patternless hackle is not only due to Db.
Wheaten.

Effects of Db:
Changes concentric pencilled to transverse pencilled (adult).
Removes black pattern from (lower) hackle.
Is able to restrict even under birchen (and extended black).
Works best on males.
Does not remove black pattern from hen's back completely.
O, and that chick down effect wink

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#96938 - 06/12/11 03:32 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Poultch]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Poultch
But (IMO) bird 3 is E^R, Pg, db+


Hi Poultch, I'm not convinced Pg can do anything on ER alone. There is not much stippling to organize.

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#96950 - 06/13/11 01:26 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Poultch Offline
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fair enough, its just my opinion of what that bird is from your description, and from my experiences, dont feel that i am trying to convince you of anything.
I am still waiting to see if homozygous Pg does anything drastic on the adult plumage, but i guarantee you that you see it in juv feathers.

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#96957 - 06/13/11 02:34 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Poultch]
Henk69 Offline
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This question may be relevant:
How long do the cockerels in pencilled partridge eb Pg/Pg keep the autosomal like barring before getting the black breasted red plumage?

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#96961 - 06/13/11 07:34 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Sigi Offline
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Answer: when adult plumage comes in and thats NOT related to moult since not all youth feathers are replaced at first moult. Therefore you sometimes see adult pattern and youth pattern on one bird.

(here I go again, I've had a Serama rooster of 6 years (died recently due to predator) who still did not have all autosomal barred feathers replaced... over time more are replaced by adult patterned (single laced), his wing coverts were last to change, second last lower breast, first were tail, secondaries and primaries in Winter 2005-6).

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#97059 - 06/16/11 06:35 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Henk
Patternless hackle is not only due to Db.
Wheaten.


Are you talking about eWh or ey?


To the previous statement about relation between mottling and Db, I would like to add one more:

My observation is that on e+, one dose of Db in roosters efficiently 'kills' the black band in mottling. Does anybody have experiences that show the same or opposite?


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#97060 - 06/16/11 06:41 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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For me those are the same... wink

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#97623 - 07/11/11 11:36 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Henk
So you get blacktail roosters?


I can't see if the tail would be black , as they are white because of mottling. Anyway, do you know any gene which would make a mottled ginger out of a mottled duckwing with one dose?




Note, that he is stripped for black bands in mottles.Here is an orange mottled pullet (assumed on Co) for comparison:



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#97630 - 07/12/11 12:19 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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He could be the odd hormonally challenged cockerel, but he is a good clue.

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#97738 - 07/18/11 12:24 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Henk
He could be the odd hormonally challenged cockerel


No, he could not. Hormonally challenged cockerels do not have combs like he has.He is 3 months old on this picture.


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#102051 - 02/09/12 04:18 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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I would like to come back to this hen



I posted her before. As a young she was mottled all over the body, and before adulthood the black bands disappeared from her breast.

But now I have one which KEPT her bands on the breast. She is minimally more eumelanized on her back, but the breast is without melanizers. So my conclusions are:

1) It can be done to have black bands on salmon breast(but I still do not know if it IS because she has some melanizers elsewhere)
2)You never know who and when





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#102068 - 02/10/12 06:30 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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Could she be het columbian on homo e+?
Not homo columbian to still show the salmon but het to allow the black band?
Or is she not pure e+?

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#102070 - 02/10/12 07:29 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Piet]
Wieslaw Offline
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No, she is pure e+/e+ s+ mo/mo co+/co+ plus melanizers(whatever they are). I do not have cocks which have Co and mo at the same time(only chicks).

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#102072 - 02/10/12 09:03 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Piet Offline
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Hi Wieslaw, do you have pics from her chickdown?

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#102074 - 02/10/12 12:17 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Piet]
Wieslaw Offline
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Hi Piet, I'm afraid not. Normally I make pictures of chicks that do not look 'normal' for me, or only for the sake of comparison. So there was nothing unusual about her, just chipmunk.

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#102161 - 02/13/12 05:30 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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Wieslaw, was the above one e+/e+ ? Or is this one ER/e+ (& Db or similar)?

And yes, mo black banding expresses on Db base. Just as Pg black autosomal barring expresses on Db base.

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#102187 - 02/14/12 05:20 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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Kazjaps , I must check if I have any notes of her. It grew up to be a pullet with a too floppy comb,so I gave her to my nephew, where she was killed by his neighbor's dog. As it was from my first hatch that year, the father was e+/e+ mo/mo S/s and one shot of melanizers. She is probably one of the UFO's(unidentified feathered objects)

She developed like this:










She did not show black banding on the mottles, as did not ANY of the cocks with this gene, and majority of other pullets either

Continues


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#102189 - 02/14/12 05:41 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Here are pictures of another pullet , identical at hatch, but grew up to be gold and a little different.The difference is lack of melanizers. Notice the significant restriction of eumelanin on the tails on both pullets. Her comb was too big and too floppy so I gave her to one of my friends, she is a greit layer, still alive









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#102191 - 02/14/12 06:45 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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Thanks for the photos. I think the brownish chick down would be very unusual if it was e+/e+, as Db dilutes e+ down, not darken. So the chick down suggests ER Db more. The hens have quite clean yellow legs for ER, but then - Leghorns (other modifiers for clean ER legs).

I think you've got other modifiers knocking out the black banding of mottled. It's not typical mottling pattern, plus the weird white patches on chick down.

Are you able to test with wheaten (eWh/eWh s+ co+/co+)?
-----------------
The following hen had buff chick down (eWh/? Co present):


The following full sister hatched cream chick down (may have had very thin stripes on the back - eWh/? co+/co+):


Other cream downed (co+/co+ eWh/?) sisters were more wheaten like ground colour:


When crossed to a melanised e+/e+ blue brassy-back roo (Mo+/mo), I got the following pullet:


The chick down & juvenile plumage suggested e+/e+, with maybe Db/db+. No Co possible.

Eumelanisers in there, plus a red enhancer.

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#102239 - 02/16/12 02:30 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Lanae Offline
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Do these chicks look like they have motteling?





I dont have any mottled birds in the breeding pen that these birds came out of, which is why I ask. The roo is a birchen/silver duckwing and the hens are all silver duckwing.

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#102240 - 02/16/12 05:46 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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Lanae, yes, it looks like it has at least 1 mo gene

Kazjaps , I have never had eWh/eWh co+/co+. The only birds which MAY have wheaton are e+splits with Co and mo plus probable recessive melanizers.

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#102250 - 02/17/12 02:34 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
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I have read this entire thread twice hoping to learn something. To my brain it is just blah blah blah, but I am going to keep reading it over and over till something clicks. Thank you for your help.

So my question is, if the chicks I posted pics of have 1 copy of the mo gene, will they feather out black. Do I then breed them to another bird I know has the mo gene and then 50% of the chicks will be visibly mo in their adult feathers or am I thinking wrong.

Lanae


Edited by Lanae (02/17/12 02:34 PM)

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#102252 - 02/17/12 03:54 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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I actually said that it LOOKS like it has AT LEAST ONE(compared to my birds). Who knows, maybe the other parent also carries mo without you knowing it. But in case this chick feathers out black it means it is mo/Mo+. If you then cross it to a bird with identical genotype, you´ll get 25% mottled birds. That's what 'recessive' is all about.
If you cross it to a mottled bird, you'll get 50% mottled offspring.

What part of the thread is blah blah? Maybe I can help?

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#102254 - 02/17/12 06:42 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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All of the genetic terms on all of the threads are way over my head. I have printed out alot of reading material and am just going to start with the basics. It will be a while before any explanation but the dumbed down version will help me but I am going to keep reading. I am stubborn that way.

I just decided that it might be in my best interest to learn the genetics behind the colors I am working with in Araucana ( Black Breasted Red based on wheaten, Duckwing, and now motteling) if I am going to make good decisions about who to breed to what.


Is it usual for mo/Mo+ birds to show some coloration in the first feathers and then feather out black. I have never noticed any motteling in my other birds that is why I thought it was strange when I noticed it in these chicks.

Lanae

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#102279 - 02/18/12 12:10 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lanae
Is it usual for mo/Mo+ birds to show some coloration in the first feathers and then feather out black. I have never noticed any motteling in my other birds that is why I thought it was strange when I noticed it in these chicks.

Lanae


I would turn it around and say: as far as my birds are concerned, it it rather rare that they do NOT show any sign at all when heterozygous. It can vary from a very few mottles to nearly half bird white(mostly on black)when very young.

Here, if you look closely, you can find a few mottles on Mo+/mo grown up pullets:



The tail! The tail!on the black one:








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#102281 - 02/18/12 02:30 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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The pictures speak volumes. I will go out and investigate the adults birds and see if any of them are showing motteling.

Thank You,

Lanae

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#102285 - 02/18/12 05:19 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Kaalnek Online   content
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Off topic: Wieslaw, for some reason it hit me suddenly while looking at your pictures- is there genetic control or any noted tendency over which side the comb flops over to? Your chickens have a very nice view from their coops!

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#102286 - 02/18/12 06:51 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Kaalnek]
Wieslaw Offline
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It's not their coop. It's their run. The view is my neighbours lawn, which is only visible in winter, because of the hedge directly behind the windows. I live only 30 km from the North Sea, so we have winds nearly ALL THE TIME, so I have screened the run with some old windows to protect them from rain. Otherwise there would be a pond in their run.

Here is their run from my side:



Concerning the combs, I have read somewhere that somebody has found out, that there is more combs falling to one of the sides, but do not remember which one it was. From my observations majority of the daughters imitate their mothers, but it's not the case with the black one.
Here is her mother:



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#102288 - 02/18/12 09:42 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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Lanae,

There can be alot of variation of E or ER chick down black/white pattern, both with and without mottling, depending on lines. Even lines without mo - mottling in them can have alot of white in the down, and in juvenile feathers. So it is a matter of waiting till they mature to adulthood to know for certain.

Eg, this is an F2 wheaten based Indian Game /Orpington crossbred chick, no mo - mottling in them:


Same chick as an adult:


There is this following juvenile stage too, where you get that white band across the wings (only temporary - they grow out of it):
The following a Blue Red Modern e+/e+ Bl/bl+:

*He segregated from two Pile (I/i+) parents.

The following Modern BBRed e+/e+ young cockerel (unrelated to the Piles), showing some white tipped feathers:

I was hoping he was mo/mo, but the white tipped feathers aren't that prominent anymore. It was the first setting after I bought the parents. I don't know if there is mo in this long established line, but never mentioned by the breeder, & no mo/mo birds on the property when I visited.

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#102298 - 02/19/12 10:01 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Lanae Offline
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I read somewhere that an adult bird with only 1 copy of mo wont show as an adult. But two copies will. Is this true.

Lanae

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#102299 - 02/19/12 10:20 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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In theory yes. It applies not only to mo but to ALL recessive genes. But it does not mean that one feather or two can't have 'a mind on their own'(mosaicism).
Here you have a mature hen which is spangled all over the body, but 1 feather has a solid thick lace instead.




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#102396 - 02/22/12 04:53 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Here are some pictures for those of you, who hope that spangling will help you with 'taming' the mottling. It will not. The bird below has relatively many spangles, but not necessarily on the same feathers as the mottles.








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#102472 - 02/24/12 10:39 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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Would you all look at this boy for me. He appears to me to be mottled. But he is red and white. He does have 3 black feathers.




I have gotten 1 chick that is similar out of him, but not sure who the hen is.

Lanae

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#102473 - 02/24/12 10:40 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Marvin Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lanae
Would you all look at this boy for me. He appears to me to be mottled. But he is red and white. He does have 3 black feathers.




I have gotten 1 chick that is similar out of him, but not sure who the hen is.

Lanae
don´t look mottled to me

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#102475 - 02/24/12 12:16 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Marvin]
Wieslaw Offline
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Lanae,do you know what did he look like at hatch? He may be mottled with a lot of 'other stuff' He may also be one of those Kazjaps wrote about lately, a new mutation in Game Fowl called 'spottie', but as far as I remember it was an Australian thing. Extremely white splash? Who were the parents? Any siblings? Do the red feathers have white endings somewhere?

Has he always been like this? Or was it a sudden change from something else?


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#102477 - 02/24/12 01:06 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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Yes he has been like this as long as I have had him. I will ask the previous owner what color he was at hatch. Here are some more photos. Sorry they arn't great, he didn't want to hold still.

His black feathers are outlined in brown all of them, some of his red brown feathers are tipped in white, but not all. He only has 3 black feathers ( shaft is black, outside edge is red brown) the rest are as you see in the photos.





Lanae

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#102478 - 02/24/12 01:09 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Lanae Offline
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I have owned him since he was 6 to 8 months old. He hasn't changed much that I have noticed. The previous owner hatched him from shipped eggs and none other were like him. I have 1 roo chick I hatched out of his pen that is very similar to him only more orange and less red brown, but coloration of feathers is similar.

Lanae

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#102480 - 02/24/12 01:47 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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I can see a real mottle on the first picture, so he may be mottled after all. But with a lot of 'luggage'.

Is your second cockerel something like this:




or like this?


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#102481 - 02/24/12 02:01 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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No, I will run out and take pics of the second boy. Look at the second pic to my post. If you look carefully you can see one of his saddle feathers. It is red with a long white tip. Is that what mottling looks like. I knew the first pic showed mottling.

Lanae

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#102482 - 02/24/12 02:16 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Lanae Offline
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Here is a couple of pics of the offspring. I am guessing the hen is a e+/eWh with columbian hen I have in the pen with him. As the other hen is a blue.




This boy doesn't have as many mottles on the end of the red feathers and also seems to be missing all the black that his dad has.

Lanae

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#102483 - 02/24/12 02:36 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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If you only have 2 hens in question, you could test them with an ordinary black mottled bird(no matter what breed). If neither of them produces mottled chicks, then it is not mottling and could be a new mutation(could be a dominant one it such a case). Otherwise it would only be a quessing game.

The blue one could possibly make a really 'wild ' splash, but it would mean that the cock in question had to have blue parents too.

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#102484 - 02/24/12 04:16 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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The roo has thrown crele colored birds, and splash birds, so I am assuming he has barring and splash in there somewhere, but I didn't think splash affected red.

There are 3 hens in his pen, blue, black, and the wheaten/wild type hen. The black hen has not been in there but a few months and She just started laying again, so I will be hatching eggs from her in a couple of weeks. The blue hen has consistantly been hatching blue, black, and splash, with him. I havn't hatched any of the eWh/e+ hens eggs since last spring because she is not a blue egg layer and I didn't want to accidentally throw one of her offspring back in the breeding pen without knowing. Last spring the eggs from the eWh/e+ hen gave me red splash, crele, and really splotchy almost patchwork roos. I only kept the one roo colored same as the cock in question.

Lanae

Lanae

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#102485 - 02/24/12 05:16 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Lanae Offline
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I went out and looked at a splash ( black and white ) roo that I still had that hatched from the aforementioned roo and his blue girl. The splash roo definately has mottled tips to some of his black feathers. He also is black and white, where my other splash's are black, blue ( grey ), and white.

Lanae

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#102489 - 02/25/12 08:16 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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From the descriptions it looks like your cock has one B, black chicks suggest he is heterozygous for Bl. So his white color may be explained by homozygoty of mo in combination with B and addition of Bl. It is known from 55 Flowery Leghorns , where homozygoty of B and mo strips practically all eumelanin from roosters. I had splotchy roosters B/B mo/mo on black e-locus, but yours is e+ on at least one e-locus(provided you recognized the creles correctly).

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#102491 - 02/25/12 10:16 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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I cannot say I recognized them correctly, I was going off their color and only the girls were crele, so red barred neck and blue barred bodys. I didn't keep any.

I tried that on the chicken calculator and no picture was available.

So you say that he is possibly, a wild type or part, with 1 hit of blue, 1 hit of mottling, and is barred. Would all that account for the splotchyness of the also, or do you think he may have dominant white in there somewhere also.

Lanae


Edited by Henk69 (02/26/12 03:29 AM)

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#102492 - 02/25/12 10:17 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Lanae Offline
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The i, is supposed to be a 1. Sorry about that.

Lanae

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#102493 - 02/25/12 10:42 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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If he had 1 dominant white, 50% of his children with each female would be white. You did not say anything about so many white babies. To be that splochy he must have 2 hits of mottling. Try to google crele females and compare, real crele have salmon breasts.

Here is a link


http://www.sv-zwerg-italiener.de/?q=node/304



Edited by Wieslaw (02/25/12 10:48 AM)

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#102494 - 02/25/12 11:20 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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They probably weren't crele, then. None of mine looked like that. I will look and see if I took photos. I don't remember any of his children being white, or at least solid white, I have gotten roos that look like him and hens that are almost white splash's with salmon breast, and roos that were almost red pyle, but not many.

Lanae

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#102496 - 02/25/12 02:35 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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Did they look like this:


Then it can be Er(either from father or mother)




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#102500 - 02/25/12 09:01 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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Yes they were similar to that only the body was lighter than the front one. They were very pale barred.

I hatched two eggs from the roo this week and they are looking to be splash's. They are out of the blue hen. Wouldn't that mean that he has to be carry blue for him and a blue to have a splash? So that is one part of his genetics answered. Next weekend I have some eggs from him and the black hen set to hatch. I havn't set any from the e+ hen yet. Still undecided if I want to hatch her eggs.

Lanae

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#102501 - 02/26/12 03:28 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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You do not have to keep her chicks. But they can say something about the father's genotype.
The light barred hens could have been blue barred.

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#102535 - 02/28/12 05:15 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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I would like to add, that combination of mo/mo B/B on e+/e+ affects not only eumelanin on roosters, but also PHEOMELANIN. According to a Swedish description , cocks on s+/s+ are white with sporadic yellow feathers.



Now, isn't it something else?

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#102536 - 02/28/12 10:20 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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I have started collecting eggs from my e+/eWh hen who lays the brown eggs and is in with him. I will set them this friday.

The two splash's that hatched last weekend are feathering in splotchy e+, which reminded me that I did get a chick from him that was born grey chipmonk and then feathered out splashed and splotchy except for pure white wings. I will post a pic of the chick tomorrow.

Lanae

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#102549 - 02/29/12 01:54 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Kaalnek Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
I would like to add, that combination of mo/mo B/B on e+/e+ affects not only eumelanin on roosters, but also PHEOMELANIN. According to a Swedish description , cocks on s+/s+ are white with sporadic yellow feathers.



Now, isn't it something else?


Yes, something else! Is it really B not Bsd involved here? I had Bsd segregate out of show breeding line white Naked Neck. BsdBsd looks very similar to that rooster. I can see the mottling on those hens though- mine lacked mo. Now am wondering if Bsd would affect phaeo also- don't know myself as I outcrossed to silver on E/ER bases.


Edited by Kaalnek (02/29/12 02:01 PM)

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#102551 - 02/29/12 03:35 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Kaalnek]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kaalnek
Is it really B not Bsd involved here?


Personally I have not tested them, so I do not know. But the barring is out of White Leghorns , so probably just an 'ordinary' B. Fiftyfive flowery Leghorns were created out of White and Brown Leghorns. I once had a cock which was mo/mo B/B on black. He was patchy like a cow, mostly white, not attractive at all in my eyes.

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#102596 - 03/03/12 02:45 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lanae
Would you all look at this boy for me. He appears to me to be mottled. But he is red and white. He does have 3 black feathers.




I have gotten 1 chick that is similar out of him, but not sure who the hen is.

Lanae


I came across "Bianco spruzzato rosso" or "red splashed white" !
This should be a not registered gene "rs/rs" !

From Dr. E. Corti pages :
"Si tratta di uno dei maggiori inibitori delle due melanine, che segregò da un ceppo di RIR i cui pulcini erano bianchi con chiazza rossa alla nuca, mentre gli adulti erano bianchi con spruzzature rosse variabili per estensione e intensità. Inoltre negli incroci questo gene dimostrò di essere persino un inibitore totale dell’eumelanina, con alcuni soggetti rs/rs del tutto bianchi, mentre altri mostravano macchie nere al capo e poche macchioline nere sul mantello. Sfortunatamente questa mutazione non è stata mantenuta, né reidentificata. Avrebbe potuto essere un ottimo materiale per lo studio del controllo genetico della pigmentazione".

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#102598 - 03/03/12 03:05 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
SilverSilkie Offline
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chick of Black white mottled X Black white mottled :


chick of Black white mottle X Black unicolor :


This last one become much more lighter feathers than the otherone !! I not understand why ?


Edited by SilverSilkie (03/03/12 03:06 AM)

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#102599 - 03/03/12 03:16 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
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You have mixed up the eggs.

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#102600 - 03/03/12 03:16 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
I would like to add, that combination of mo/mo B/B on e+/e+ affects not only eumelanin on roosters, but also PHEOMELANIN. According to a Swedish description , cocks on s+/s+ are white with sporadic yellow feathers.



Now, isn't it something else?


Also from the page of Dr. E. Corti : Conflitti fra geni e allevatori

"In sintesi: il gene I, assente nel dorato che possiede il suo allele i+, inibisce il nero comportandosi da epistatico rispetto a C+, e riduce il rosso. Allo stato omozigote cancella integralmente il nero e attenua molto il rosso; se è eterozigote ha scarsa azione sul rosso e può lasciar apparire qualche rara traccia di nero. Gli allevatori lo chiamano anche Bianco Livorno, perché è stato osservato per la prima volta in questa razza. Si sono osservati soggetti bianchi omozigoti che presentano alcune macchie rosse e questo fatto denuncia che il gene I non sempre prevale sulla feomelanina".

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#102602 - 03/03/12 03:21 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
You have mixed up the eggs.


Noo, the chick on the first photo is 3 weeks younger than the second, I follow from very close my projects.
The chick on the first photo is of Cochin (Bwm) X Cochin (Bwm).
The chick on the second photo is the same rooster Cochin (Bwm) X Silkie (B-unicolor) => see the 5 toes.

I think of mo (pi), what you think ?


Edited by SilverSilkie (03/03/12 03:31 AM)

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#102611 - 03/03/12 05:01 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
This is a major inhibitor of the two melanins, which segregated from a strain of RIR chicks which were white with red patch on the nape, while the adults were white with red spraying variables in scope and intensity. Also this gene in crosses proved to be even a total eumelanin inhibitor, with some subjects rs / rs entirely white, while others show black spots in the head and a few black spots on the mantle. Unfortunately, this mutation has not been maintained, nor reidentificated. It could be an excellent material for studying the genetic control of pigmentation


The translation says clearly that that gene does not fit here. This gene died out and has never been reported again.If it only was 1 gene, then at least 50% of the children of 1 of the females would inherit it.




Edited by Wieslaw (03/04/12 04:12 AM)
Edit Reason: reworded last sentence.

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#102614 - 03/03/12 06:35 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
KazJaps Offline
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Lanae

I recall years ago seeing similar phenotype on an American egroup/forum. I think they were called Harlequins. Can't remember now if on a Game, Ameraucana, or?

The local Gamers believe that the Pit Game Spotties descended from 'Gurney Pieds' (an old OEG strain). I wouldn't be surprised if the genetics were in American Game.
This is a local Australian Pit Game - Ginger Spotty:

Although not shown in the photo above, some of the pigmented feathers do have white tips, some similar to large mottled tips, others splashes of white. Yet no black mottled or exchequer segregate in the line I have (ie none in the breeder's flock). Neither were there any barred or crele birds. There were plenty of predominantly white with occasional black flecks, ie similar to Dominant White (which I suspect might be homozygous spotties).


There is a similar phenotype Game bird in Batty's OEG Colour Guide (2000) book. The photo was apparently of a bird from the 'Orient'. Batty suggested Blue (ie Blue Splash).

----------------------
Here is Quinn's paper on the red splashed whites:

A Colour Mutation in the Rhode Island Red Fowl.
Joseph P. Quinn
Journal of Genetics. Vol. 29, No. 1. 75-83. (April, 1934)
full paper
*red splashed white mutation (B/W photos) - full paper still available

The following Hutt's paper on Erminettes:

Genetic Basis Of The Erminette Breed Of Fowls.
(F. B. Hutt, J Hered-1964-HUTT-200-6)
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/5/200.full.pdf
* need to subscribe now to see full paper.

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#102621 - 03/04/12 08:32 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
Noo, the chick on the first photo is 3 weeks younger than the second, I follow from very close my projects.
The chick on the first photo is of Cochin (Bwm) X Cochin (Bwm).
The chick on the second photo is the same rooster Cochin (Bwm) X Silkie (B-unicolor) => see the 5 toes.

I think of mo (pi), what you think ?



I recall Kazjaps had some mottleds at some point which were hatching black. You can find pictures in one of the old threads. But it is not something I consider 'normal'.

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#102622 - 03/04/12 09:12 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
Noo, the chick on the first photo is 3 weeks younger than the second, I follow from very close my projects.
The chick on the first photo is of Cochin (Bwm) X Cochin (Bwm).
The chick on the second photo is the same rooster Cochin (Bwm) X Silkie (B-unicolor) => see the 5 toes.

I think of mo (pi), what you think ?



I recall Kazjaps had some mottleds at some point which were hatching black. You can find pictures in one of the old threads. But it is not something I consider 'normal'.


These were cetainly not hatched black :


A few details now they have about 4 a 5 weeks :






As I said the father was a Cochin Black withe mottled (should be E/E S/S mo/mo), the mother is a Silkie Black unicolor (should be E/? S/- Mo+/Mo+ ... Co? Ml? Pg?)
These chicks pattern confuse me completely !!

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#102624 - 03/04/12 09:30 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
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So neither of your birds are what you think they are.It seems like neither of them is pure at the e-locus, and the picture of the spread wing suggests some kind of Columbian-like restriction(Db?). Ml and Pg and recessive eumelanizers should not be big surprises in black birds.

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#102628 - 03/04/12 02:44 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Poultch Offline
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Silver Silkie,
I thought that EU black silkied were predominantly melaninsed eb.

these chicks look like eb/eb and eb hets to me

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#102640 - 03/05/12 12:36 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Poultch]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Was why I wrote for the mother Black Silkie hen E/? but I should consider now eb/eb. I know many carry Co, Pg, Ml even Db.
That make the father Cochin Black white mottled was also unpure at the E-Locus E/eb probably !
When you look the spread wing feathers each of them have a white tip, could this indicate Mo+/mo ?

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#102651 - 03/05/12 06:39 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Lanae Offline
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Loc: Willits, California
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Lanae

I recall years ago seeing similar phenotype on an American egroup/forum. I think they were called Harlequins. Can't remember now if on a Game, Ameraucana, or?

The local Gamers believe that the Pit Game Spotties descended from 'Gurney Pieds' (an old OEG strain). I wouldn't be surprised if the genetics were in American Game.
This is a local Australian Pit Game - Ginger Spotty:

Although not shown in the photo above, some of the pigmented feathers do have white tips, some similar to large mottled tips, others splashes of white. Yet no black mottled or exchequer segregate in the line I have (ie none in the breeder's flock). Neither were there any barred or crele birds. There were plenty of predominantly white with occasional black flecks, ie similar to Dominant White (which I suspect might be homozygous spotties).


There is a similar phenotype Game bird in Batty's OEG Colour Guide (2000) book. The photo was apparently of a bird from the 'Orient'. Batty suggested Blue (ie Blue Splash).

----------------------
Here is Quinn's paper on the red splashed whites:

A Colour Mutation in the Rhode Island Red Fowl.
Joseph P. Quinn
Journal of Genetics. Vol. 29, No. 1. 75-83. (April, 1934)
full paper
*red splashed white mutation (B/W photos) - full paper still available

The following Hutt's paper on Erminettes:

Genetic Basis Of The Erminette Breed Of Fowls.
(F. B. Hutt, J Hered-1964-HUTT-200-6)
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/5/200.full.pdf
* need to subscribe now to see full paper.


Thank you for the photos. They look just like the coloration I am seeing on my roo. I have set some eggs from a Black Breasted Red hen and him. I will see what hatches. I have two splash chicks that are feathering out typically splash, from him and a blue hen.

Lanae

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#102656 - 03/06/12 04:49 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Sigi Offline
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Black cochin bantams are eb/eb as well, just like the silkies...
I don't know how you can get a black bird with Co and Db in it?

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#102673 - 03/06/12 07:56 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Sigi]
Lanae Offline
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So I just hatched out a chick today from the previous mentioned roo of mine ( red spotty) and a blue hen. She is out of a blue hen and same roo. This chick is a chipmonk and looks to be wild type. This is a first for these two. Usually they are blue or splash of some sort. I have even gotten a black, but I don't remember a chipmonk. I mark all my eggs when I pick them up as to which hen and which roo. I only have about 30 hens and its taken a couple of months to figure out who lays what in each pen.

Lanae

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#102679 - 03/06/12 11:02 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Lanae Offline
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Dumb question, I guess. Is motteling always a white tip or spot on a colored feather or can it be a black tip or spot on a white or colored feather?

Lanae

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#102685 - 03/07/12 03:46 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Henk69 Offline
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Mottling often causes a black band to follow the white feathertip.
This white feathertip can be very small or absent, which would give a black tip in those cases.

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#102686 - 03/07/12 04:18 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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Lanae, I have a lot of mottled birds, and actually the opposite can be a problem more often,ie. the white part is not followed by the black band(common on salmon breast of e+/e+ females, and some other gene combinations).

If you only have black spangles with no white dots whatsoever on the whole body , then it is not mottling. The mottling gene delays the onset of pigmentation.

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#102689 - 03/07/12 05:57 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Lanae Offline
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I understand. Thanks for the info. On another website someone was asking what their chicken was and It had these black dots on it hackle. Didn't look like the markings you get with columbian, more round. Someone else said it wasn't mottling so I thought I would like to know why it couldn't be mottling.

Lanae

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#102837 - 03/14/12 05:55 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Lanae]
Wieslaw Offline
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I have found a curiosity to show you. Last summer some of my young pullets feathered out with very hysterically mottled necks. I posted their pictures somewhere before. In the beginning of January my coop was without electricity, and some of the pullets which started laying in the summer went MOLTING! The curiosity is that they molted the hytsterical mottles off, and now are normal. Compare before and after:

Before:


After


Before:


After:



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#102839 - 03/14/12 06:32 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
CJR Online   content
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With Mille Fleur and Citroen Mille Fleur Dutch for the past 10 years, some of the birds change color and pattern a little after every molt males, especially. Some remain just the way I hope for. Have a nice line of females that never get too much white on feather ends, oldest is now 8 years old, still producing lovely chicks. These birds came from Holland and we need some more!
The mottled gene and its mixes are purely educational/entertaining, and ("over my head sometimes!"). I really like the variety/varieties. CJR

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#106618 - 11/04/12 10:51 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: CJR]
Wieslaw Offline
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A new thing to watch. There may exist a mottling delayer-modifier gene. I do not know where I got it from. I observed that it 'jumped over' from mother to daughter, so it MAY be dominant. It delays the onset of mottling at least on e+ and the mottling is more scarce than what is 'normal for me'. Another thing connected to it: it does not allow for white feathers in the second set of tail feathers(which is normal with me). Unfortunately I do not have chick pictures.

Mother as young



Daughter:


Does it ring any bell with anybody?

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#106830 - 11/16/12 03:15 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Here is an Araucana pullet I hatched this summer, she's about 4 months old now.

This "is" mottling, isn't it? I laid her down to look her over, she isn't quite as mottled on the top side but the underfluff, legs and elsewhere have a lot of white tips.


[img]http://www.backyardchickens.com/image/id/8757631/width/900/height/900/flags/LL[/img]





Edited by Smooth Mule (11/16/12 03:16 PM)

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#106831 - 11/16/12 03:17 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Sorry about the above post, I could not get the first photo to link right

Also, I have seen some mottled that have mottled coloring on the legs, is this always the case? or different types of mottling or what?


Edited by Smooth Mule (11/16/12 03:18 PM)

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#106882 - 11/18/12 03:37 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Smooth Mule]
Wieslaw Offline
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Yes, she looks mottled, but she may be heterozygous, and lose her mottles with time.
Not all mottled birds have mottled coloring on the legs.

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#106884 - 11/18/12 03:50 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Next to id+ there should be id^a - Ancona (mottled pigment)

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#106885 - 11/18/12 04:20 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Sigi]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sigi
Black cochin bantams are eb/eb as well, just like the silkies...
I don't know how you can get a black bird with Co and Db in it?



Cote's research birds......

4 Blue Frizzle Cochin (EE ml+/ml+ co+/co+ Id w/w)
and
7 Solid Black Plymouth Rock (E/eb ml+ Co/co+ id+/id+ w/w)

from : http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html

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#106887 - 11/18/12 05:16 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
KazJaps Offline
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I imagine Sigi was talking about: can't get an eb/eb black bird with Co and Db. Ie. - not E or ER as Cote's birds.

My Black Pekins were E or ER based (black with white chick down), & were s+/s+ based (the occasional red feather in male's - neck hackles), plus clean yellow-legged.

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#106890 - 11/18/12 05:47 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Originally Posted By: KazJaps
I imagine Sigi was talking about: can't get an eb/eb black bird with Co and Db. Ie. - not E or ER as Cote's birds.

My Black Pekins were E or ER based (black with white chick down), & were s+/s+ based (the occasional red feather in male's - neck hackles), plus clean yellow-legged.


Originally Posted By: Sigi
Black cochin bantams are eb/eb as well, just like the silkies...
I don't know how you can get a black bird with Co and Db in it?


I intended that black Cochins should be E or ER based and not eb.
I agree melanised eb/eb with Co and/or Db would not produce solid black birds.

Clean yellow legs !! Should that not implicate they are on ER ?


Edited by SilverSilkie (11/18/12 06:19 AM)
Edit Reason: added question

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#106893 - 11/18/12 07:25 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
KazJaps Offline
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ER probably more likely, but as Ron Okimoto DNA tested Cochin Bantams & found E/E - I'm not going to rule E out. Don't know if the birds DNA tested would have had yellow legs as adults.

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#106896 - 11/18/12 08:27 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
SilverSilkie Offline
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I base my supposition on "A major influence on epidermal pigment shank colour is the E (Extended Black) gene, and to a lessor degree - ER (Birchen)" but as you remark we better not rule E out.

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#114517 - 06/22/15 02:57 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
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I have started this thread some years ago. After reading japanese papers on mottling I decided to repeat the experiment, this time the other way around. I have a hen who is a result of a crossing between a pure black leghorn hen with an e+/e+ mo/mo cock (totally black herself). I put her together with a non-E-ER mottled cock and collected 13 consecutive eggs. Out of the 10 that hatched there are 4 black mottled chicks. So there was no linkage with the e-locus at all this time. It seems like the japanese paper may be correct.

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#114518 - 06/22/15 06:02 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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Thank you for the test breeding update.

Hope you still have your chickens (after the problems with the neighbours, etc), as you've segregated quite a lot of interesting mutations & combinations.

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#114549 - 06/28/15 02:35 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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Hi Kazjaps, I still have my chickens, but officially I'm only allowed to have 15 birds total and without a rooster. But I did not give up yet.

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#114551 - 06/29/15 06:08 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Robbie Online   content
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Wieslaw have you considered using a rooster collar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34eFiQ1p-hw
I have no experience with them but it might be worth a try.

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#114597 - 07/12/15 10:34 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Robbie]
Wieslaw Offline
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Robbie, thank you very much for the link. I love you even though I do not know you! smile

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#114603 - 07/14/15 09:00 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Robbie Online   content
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Wieslaw you are welcome. :-)
I hope it works ......

I should mention that the rooster collar video was posted a few months ago on the Poultry Swap Ontario forum- that's where I first saw it. So, I believe it's actually Cuttlefish (I think that was the original poster) you love ;-)

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#114604 - 07/14/15 11:42 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Robbie]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Extraordinary. TheCoop seems to have turned into a gay cruising site! I'm not sure I want to know what a 'rooster collar' is! grin
_________________________
If you have nothing............
......... give it away!

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#114605 - 07/15/15 12:03 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Robbie]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Robbie
Wieslaw you are welcome. :-)
I hope it works ......

I should mention that the rooster collar video was posted a few months ago on the Poultry Swap Ontario forum- that's where I first saw it. So, I believe it's actually Cuttlefish (I think that was the original poster) you love ;-)



I'm in the process of trying it out. I started with a loose collar. The rooster was walking backwards for a few hours trying to shake it off. After the first tightening his pitch went actually one note higher. After the second tightening it began to work, but not always. I will try one more tightening.
In my opinion the inventor should be given the Nobel award.

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#114607 - 07/15/15 03:28 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Online   content
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Hopefully, Your poor rooster's head (Sic! I avoid the equivocal word ) don't turn to blue and die off
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#114608 - 07/15/15 07:24 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
Robbie Online   content
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Hen-Gen both Cuttlefish and I are girls, so no cruising worries. :-)

Check out the video, it's just a piece of velcro around the rooster's neck that doesn't allow him to crow. I think the trick might be to keep the velcro low on the neck.

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#114612 - 07/16/15 05:58 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Robbie]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Robbie
Hen-Gen both Cuttlefish and I are girls, so no cruising worries. :-)


Darn it! grin
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If you have nothing............
......... give it away!

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#115021 - 10/31/15 02:14 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
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Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Lanae

I recall years ago seeing similar phenotype on an American egroup/forum. I think they were called Harlequins. Can't remember now if on a Game, Ameraucana, or?

The local Gamers believe that the Pit Game Spotties descended from 'Gurney Pieds' (an old OEG strain). I wouldn't be surprised if the genetics were in American Game.
This is a local Australian Pit Game - Ginger Spotty:

Although not shown in the photo above, some of the pigmented feathers do have white tips, some similar to large mottled tips, others splashes of white. Yet no black mottled or exchequer segregate in the line I have (ie none in the breeder's flock). Neither were there any barred or crele birds. There were plenty of predominantly white with occasional black flecks, ie similar to Dominant White (which I suspect might be homozygous spotties).


There is a similar phenotype Game bird in Batty's OEG Colour Guide (2000) book. The photo was apparently of a bird from the 'Orient'. Batty suggested Blue (ie Blue Splash).

----------------------
Here is Quinn's paper on the red splashed whites:

A Colour Mutation in the Rhode Island Red Fowl.
Joseph P. Quinn
Journal of Genetics. Vol. 29, No. 1. 75-83. (April, 1934)
full paper
*red splashed white mutation (B/W photos) - full paper still available

The following Hutt's paper on Erminettes:

Genetic Basis Of The Erminette Breed Of Fowls.
(F. B. Hutt, J Hered-1964-HUTT-200-6)
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/5/200.full.pdf
* need to subscribe now to see full paper.


I think the red splash white mutation could be the same as Jubilee, which was considered as I/i in this study.
But this view can be considered as very simplified
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post13
It seems crazy, but I've read some days ago a paragraph, where they used the nomenclature I^rsw (red splashed white).
I was surprized, as I've never heard about this, that red splashed white shall be a mutation of I.
Could this be possible? Unfortunately I can't find this source, where this was mentioned again.
Or should rs rather be considered as a pattern mutation, which could be seen as red exchequer/harlequin?

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#115022 - 10/31/15 05:35 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Redcap,

I've determined through test breeding that the Australian Pit Game spotty mutation (as depicted in the close-up photo you posted) is a sex-linked dominant mutation. I'm trying to segregate a homozygous spotty male this season, hopefully will be one in these chicks:

My guess at this stage is that the mutation is incompletely dominant, but will have to wait & see.

So the spotty mutation, being sex-linked, means that we can rule out rs Red-splashed white (autosomal) and Erminette (autosomal incomplete dominant), plus I Dominant White and mo Mottled for the spotty locus. Fingers crossed, hopefully I can test breed spotty with the B barred locus within a year.

Erminette wasn't tested with I locus, so don't know if I or an allele of I locus.

Red-splashed white, being a recessive & giving both eumelanin and phaeomelanin splashes, sounds very different to an I locus mutation. It was test bred against 3 different recessive white breeds, not an allele of c locus. I suppose it could have been an allele of mo locus, but not tested for this.

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#115023 - 10/31/15 05:44 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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With my reference to the mo locus for testing rs locus, I had the mo^w white allele in mind....

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#115030 - 11/01/15 11:59 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
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Maybe Red Splash White is just a variation on the continuum of mottling (actually it is pied) like shown in Pita Pinta Asturiana?




Source:
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/patron-racial
http://www.pita-pinta.com/?page_id=33

See continuum of Platenbont
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=114145#Post114145
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#115033 - 11/02/15 01:08 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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It looks like the red mottled version has I Dominant White too, & homozygous I/I are being bleached out (phaeomelanin), similar to the Pyle Modern Game I have, & as explained in the Jubilee (I Dominant White -double laced) Indian Game paper.

Another trait of the rs was some with a red spot on the top of the head of day-olds. This is similar to the Exchequer Jap chicks I had, ie day-olds were white with a black (sometimes red) spot on top of the head. Some were solid white. Makes sense now after the recent discovery of mo and mo^w DNA results & the phenotypes of the Japanese tested birds. Wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple mottled alleles (eg as hypothesized by Smyth, & listed by Somes: mo^pi pied), but we will have to wait until a greater range of mo phenotypes are DNA tested.

Would be interesting if the bleaching white undercolour, white base of tail, white neck hackles, white wing flights, bleaching E & ER epidermal pigment, etc trait was isolated, DNA sequenced. Apparently the mo^w trait bleaches id+ dermal pigment.

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#115040 - 11/02/15 01:58 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Forgot to say thanks Redcap for the Spanish links.

I wonder if the patron Dr Orozco is the same one who is a part of the Spanish breeds genetics research team (ie Campo et al.)? Hopefully they will investigate the genetics - some DNA testing would be great.

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#115041 - 11/02/15 03:41 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
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It's always a pleasure to share papers/sites and enhance a discussion.
Dr. Orozco has made some poultry publications together with Dr. Campo
http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/autor?codigo=1630057
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#115543 - 03/12/16 02:26 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Redcap
Maybe Red Splash White is just a variation on the continuum of mottling (actually it is pied) like shown in Pita Pinta Asturiana?




Source:
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/patron-racial
http://www.pita-pinta.com/?page_id=33

See continuum of Platenbont
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=114145#Post114145


I just want to recall the question whether pied is a allele of the I-locus.
Which formula should be valid?

E – E o Er) pipi CoCo (S – ) blbl ( C – ) bb

or
(E – E o Er) I^piI^pi CoCo (S – ) blbl ( C – ) bb

And could pile be considered as a variety of paint?
So I^pi could replace the nomenclature RSY^D (Red Shoulder Yokohamas Diluter) from Brian Reeder??
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.de/2014/03/visual-white-in-chicken-varieties.html
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#115544 - 03/12/16 05:55 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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I think Brian's RSY^D was probably either the Bl allele or an allele of the Bl locus (ie heterozygotes were blue phenotype, not I white). I don't know if he did Bl locus test breeding?

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#115545 - 03/12/16 06:11 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
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For the case that RSY^D is actually blue - isn't Pile generally based on dominant white and could it be considered as an allele of I?
So could we conclude, that pile and pied should get a nomenclature similar to the shank feathering one - e.g.like I^pi1 for pile and I^pi2 for Exchequer?
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#115546 - 03/12/16 08:34 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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See Ahab's Ghost posts on his RSY crosses (eg RSY x black Sumatra produced blue with black specks/spots, RSY x Red Lehorn (with black in the tail) produced blue-tailed reds, etc).

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38130&page=all

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38954#Post38954

*but they may be different in other lines & in other countries.

One Australian RSY line (owned by Ruff) had Bl too.

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#115547 - 03/12/16 09:22 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Originally Posted By: Redcap
For the case that RSY^D is actually blue - isn't Pile generally based on dominant white and could it be considered as an allele of I?
So could we conclude, that pile and pied should get a nomenclature similar to the shank feathering one - e.g.like I^pi1 for pile and I^pi2 for Exchequer?


No, "Pile" (or Pyle) is a phenotype, not a mutation. Pile phenotype is generally produced by I dominant white. "I" is an allele of the I dominant white locus, not "pile". If I dominant white had been named "Pil" Pile instead.... Then a second mutation on the locus would start with Pil^ .... then a superscript name. Eg, if Erminette Er was determined to be another allele of the same locus as this theoretical "Pil", it would be renamed PilEr (Pil^Er) or as it stands now - I dominant white locus: IEr (I^Er)

And it would be a bad idea naming another mutation pied considering Somes has this for exchequer (Leghorns), allelic to mo locus (ie mopi). Notice too that the mutation that loci are named after, don't generally have the superscript. It's usually reserved for when new alleles are found on the locus. So I don't know why Brian uses "^" for his "red shouldered yokohama dilute" RSY^D (there's not a locus called RSY).

If Brian's RSY^D was an allele of the Bl locus, but not the Bl gene (a different mutation), then the gene symbol would start with "Bl", followed by a superscript name (whatever the mutation name is). Say it was named "red shouldered yokohama dilute" RSYD, then to make it an allele of Bl locus, it then becomes "BlRSYD" (Bl^RSYD). If it was an allele of the I locus, then it becomes IRSYD (I^RSYD)

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#115548 - 03/12/16 09:40 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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You can quickly see how it wouldn't work having the naming structure like shank feathering loci, considering the diversity in phenotypes on the I locus, ie white, smoky, dun alleles.

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#115549 - 03/12/16 09:57 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
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But, if You watch at the Pinta phenotypes You can find the pile phenotype in black and red. Therefore my question ...
I will try to get in contact with Dr. Orozco, to ask him, what he think about the I-locus hypthesis of I^pi I^mo and I^jubilee
Jubilee is considered to be heterogeneous I/i
In this Study i/i x I/I produce all Jubilee (I/i)
and I/I x I/i produce all Whites, so the question is, why You can breed Jubilee/Exchequer over generations - even if they are theoretically I/I again since long time??
Therefore I believe that Jubilee or pied could be a mutation of I (with leakage) or can it explained on polygenic way?
Do mottling (mo) or pied (pi) or Jubilee produce a leakage in I -if mo, pi or Jubilee is homogeneous?
If that is true, then Jubilee should be also a mutation, which cause leakage in I - right?
But in other crossings the backcrosses show white phenotype after a few generations.
Therefore the question is, that why pile, Exchequer or Jubilee doesn't disappear over many generations, when You can expect, that the White is pure/hom I/I again?
Where is the difference between the backcrosses of Paint/Jubilee and Non-Paint/Non-Jubilee birds with I/I birds, that the first could be Paint or Jubilee again after F2, but the last can be selecteed back to White(I/I) after F2?
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post13

So far we know - if mo or pi is heterogeneous, the Phenotype is white, even in I/i birds.
_________________________

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#115550 - 03/12/16 10:02 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Just looked it up. Although on Pubmed Somes' abstract on the paper "Identifying the ptilopody (feathered shank) loci of the chicken" has no superscripts, in the full paper he does have them. Eg:

On the Pti-1 locus there are two mutation alleles:
Pti-1L (Pti-1^L Langshan mutation)
Pti-1B (Pti-1^B Brahma mutation)

Plus he found that there was another ptilopody locus with the birds studied: Pti-2

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#115551 - 03/12/16 10:45 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Originally Posted By: Redcap
But, if You watch at the Pinta phenotypes You can find the pile phenotype in black and red. Therefore my question ...


But does the Black Pinta have an I locus mutation? I don't think it has. Would be easy enough to test the locus, eg a perfect cross would be with e+/e+ Id/Id hom. duns.

The red Pintas appear to be eWh Co s+ chick down (going by chick photos, not diagrams). Plus they could have I &/or Bl - to remove the red columbian eumelanin. Then the additional mo modifiers or different mo locus alleles or white/bleaching modifiers, & it's easy to explain the different phenotypes.

Originally Posted By: Redcap
I will try to get in contact with Dr. Orozco, to ask him, what he think about the I-locus hypthesis of I^pi I^mo and I^jubilee
Jubilee is considered to be heterogeneous I/i
Int this Study i/i x I/I produce all Jubilee (I/i)
and I/I x I/i produce all Whites, so the question is, why You can breed Jubilee over generations - when they are theoretically since long time I/I ??
Therefore I believe that Jubilee or pied could be a mutation of I (with leakage) or can it explained on polygenic way?
Do mo or pied produce a leakage in I?
If that is true, then Jubilee should be also a mutation, which cause leakage in I - right?
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post13


No. Firstly, you've got the theoretical nomenclature analogy incorrect. We already know from DNA sequencing & test breeding for loci that mottled / pied (exchequer mo^pi) & white (mo^w) phenotypes & genes are not on the same locus as I locus with dom. white, smoky & dun. So don't do a I^pi or I^mo nomenclature as this is proven not to be true.

Eg, we know that some White Leghorn lines have both mo/mo AND I/I. This is not possible if mo and I were alleles of the same locus. Remember that Carefoot crossed Mottled Ancona with Exchequer Leghorn and produced intermediate phenotype - ie both breeds had alleles from the same mo locus.

So say you believe that there is another mutation on the I locus that is similar to heterozygous I/i+ phenotype, eg Paint Silkies, Erminettes, then give it another theoretical name, not an erroneous name like mo that has another meaning & already established on the mo locus. Why confuse matters?

As to Jubilee Indian Games - here in Australia the exhibition phenotype is usually I/i+, the I/I are generally too washed out (the red diluted or just peppered with white). Similar to my Pile Modern Games - I/I are much paler/washed out than the I/i+, although how much phaeomelanin is affected by I/I depends on other modifiers in the birds (eg one Pile I/I MGB rooster has nearly full phaeomelanin pile pattern but also has a gold/red tinge to the white breast).

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#115552 - 03/12/16 10:51 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Redcap
Originally Posted By: Redcap
Maybe Red Splash White is just a variation on the continuum of mottling (actually it is pied) like shown in Pita Pinta Asturiana?




Source:
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/patron-racial
http://www.pita-pinta.com/?page_id=33

See continuum of Platenbont
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=114145#Post114145


I just want to recall the question whether pied is a allele of the I-locus.
Which formula should be valid?

(E – E o Er) pipi CoCo (S – ) blbl ( C – ) bb

or
(E – E o Er) I^piI^pi CoCo (S – ) blbl ( C – ) bb

And could pile be considered as a variety of paint?
So I^pi could replace the nomenclature RSY^D (Red Shoulder Yokohamas Diluter) from Brian Reeder??
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.de/2014/03/visual-white-in-chicken-varieties.html


They state (E – E o Er) pipi CoCo (S – ) blbl ( C – ) bb
But at the same time Exchequer are claimed to be on the I-locus. The question is again, whether mo or pi can be really combined with recessive White??
_________________________

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#115553 - 03/13/16 12:11 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Redcap


They state (E – E o Er) pipi CoCo (S – ) blbl ( C – ) bb
But at the same time Exchequer are claimed to be on the I-locus. The question is again, whether mo or pi can be really combined with recessive White??


I assumed that was for the black Pintas (considering the genotype was surrounded by blacks). At the end of the page they have the ER phenotype (silver birchen - striped hackles).

Look on this page (* ie the red pintas) & see the eWh s+ Co chick downs (and maybe other E locus alleles, eg some buff faced white like blushing beauties - eb s+ Co I or e+).
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/patron-racial


Remember too that the mo allele in the Japanese DNA sequencing study diluted all e+ stripe chick down except a pigment spot on the head.


Edited by KazJaps (03/13/16 12:17 AM)
Edit Reason: clarified

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#115554 - 03/13/16 12:42 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Redcap
But at the same time Exchequer are claimed to be on the I-locus.


? I missed this. Who is claiming that Exchequer is on the I locus? The mutation in Exchequer Leghorns certainly isn't.

Or are you talking about Brian Reeder's article? He did mention he thought RSY^D might be an I locus allele. Possibly in some lines - this needs to be locus tested.

He needs to keep in mind that Exchequer have white tipped feathers whereas nearly all of the Yokohama X examples given don't (on black feathers) (inc. BYC thread).

Plus there can be a great range of phenotypes with Bl/Bl, eg solid white examples (Spanish researchers), white with black splashes, pale grey, pale grey with splashes (blue or black), blue with black splashes, blue, etc.

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#115555 - 03/13/16 01:30 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 946
Loc: Germany
I stumbled over this ...
Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
aha ... mo/mo ... mo^Pi/mo^Pi ... Pi/Pi ... I^Pi/I^Pi ... who shall say it !

_________________________

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#115556 - 03/13/16 02:42 AM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Redcap]
Henk69 Offline
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Registered: 02/13/06
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Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Redcap
I stumbled over this ...
Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
aha ... mo/mo ... mo^Pi/mo^Pi ... Pi/Pi ... I^Pi/I^Pi ... who shall say it !



You and SilverSilkie are a dangerous couple...

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#115638 - 04/02/16 06:26 PM Re: Mottling and Linkages [Re: Henk69]
jeremy Offline
Chick

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 18
Loc: CA
Wondering if anyone can offer any input here:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=115637#Post115637

Thanks in advance.

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