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#94209 - 01/29/11 04:21 AM Red enhancers through Silver
Raf Offline
Bantam

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Australia
I have been working on producing the Blue Laced Red wyandotte down here in Australia.

Last season I put my a nice Blue laced red cockerel over some blue laced silver wyandotte females to see what they would produce (the BLS wyandottes had great type I was hoping to incorporate into the program). One of the Males from that crossing, a split gold/silver I grew out to adulthood. THis season, just as he was coming into adulthood, he got a chance in the pen with the sisiters to his father, all black laced red. Unfortunately he died within a week of being in the pen, but it seems he may have passed on some of his genetics.

I hatched only two that look like this, same hatch, matching the time he was in the pen with them.

This is a female:



THis is the male:


To me, it looks like they are both exhibiting silver, either S/s+ or S/S for the male and S/- for the female. In other conversations, I have come to the conclusion that his mother would certainly have been s+/- Mh/Mh, Ar/Ar, homo zygous for recessive balcks and possibly red enhancers, she was a very dark red.

Dad definately had Mh/? and S/s+ but was probably split for the recessive enahncers.

SO, have you ever seen red overpower silver to such an extent? Any thoughts? THey may be Mh/Mh, possibly Ar/Ar and other recessives could have paired up.... thoughts?

I plan to breed from them, as they ahve great type (even at such a young age, and the red looks quite good. Any comments on breeding from them. Brother/sister paring perhaps?

Does it all sound right to you?

Raf


Edited by Raf (01/29/11 04:23 AM)

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#94215 - 01/29/11 11:39 AM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: Raf]
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
This is quite normal in the Serama, the cocoapop colour which is appearently gold laced with silver hackle.
In Serama, when there is not enough 'red' (enhanced or not enhanced by Mh) in stock you get a kind of double lace. After the black outer lace there is a white inner lace, very perfect in pattern. This is regardless sex, both males and females (S/S, S/-) have this of which the females tend to have more silver ground colour.
I wrote about this a few years ago, I documented it in the booklet The Serama Colours, and more of these weird colours. It breeds true. Its seen in Asian game too which is not bred for colour, only for type.


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#94217 - 01/29/11 11:56 AM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: Sigi]
Raf Offline
Bantam

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Australia
Sigi,

What is the genetic make up of the Seremas you mention.

S/S, Mh/Mh, (CoPgMl),Ar/Ar, rb/rb (recessive Black)

Something like that?

You say you think it would breed true, that would be on Homo Silver yes? Once I have gold s+ then it would revert to single laced red? Note the boy above is Blue laced (dark Blue).

Raf

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#94223 - 01/29/11 09:18 PM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: Raf]
Raf Offline
Bantam

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Australia
I have done as much reading as I can on Cocoa Pop.

Wheaten
It is mentioned that it may be on wheaten, well, there is a chance these chicks are wheaten. The mothers certainly had eWh/eb base and father could have been split also. So I suppose a 25% chance they could be eWh/eWh.... but a good chance they are split eWh/eb.

Anyone shed any light on this.

Added a fe more pics. It is really hard to get detailed photos....





Cheers
Raf

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#94226 - 01/29/11 11:18 PM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: Raf]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3888
Loc: Denmark
There is a few old threads on the subject with a lot of pictures of silver red birds, but as far as I remember they are mainly on wheaten. I remember posting a link to a bird which looked like a R.I.R with silver hackles.

One bird here:

http://www.forum.woliera.com/album_page.php?pic_id=1491&sid=9845330abf90d079e1465c575ca23760

There are some links and discussion in this thread:

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88459&page=1

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#94230 - 01/30/11 08:12 AM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2914
Loc: Australia
With S & red leakage, it probably doesn't make much difference to hen phenotype which E locus allele, when Co/Co is present. I.e., it's not 'salmon' leakage in your hens.

The following is an excerpt from a letter written by Smyth, from Dr Corti's website - 'Silver a leaky gene',
Quote:
Basically, silver is a very leaky gene. When I started my research career, I was under the assumption that s+ was a key gene in pheomelanin production. Then I observed S/W columbian-restricted females that showed red pigment in their feathers. Curious, I started selecting the reddest columbian S/W females and bred them to the reddest columbian S/s+ males. In two generations my S/s+ males were almost totally red, while the S/W female plumage was more red than silver. Probably polygenic (?), but not very many genes involved.

....In a much later study, I had a cross segregating for S and s+ on a wild type background, I observed two types of male offspring with the silver pyle-zoned plumage quite white in one group, while the other was predominantly red. The s+/W females also showed differences in the degree of redness of the head and hackle and wing sides. This appeared to be caused by a red enhancing factor, possibly a single gene, but I did not have the space, funding, or time to pursue this observation further.

---------------------
The following is a S (silver) crossbred Indian Game hen , with plenty of red leakage:


* no Co in these, ie co+/co+.

The following a S/s+ brother to the above hen:


* for some reason these roosters didn't show much red leakage.

These ones had wheaten down chicks (with thin dorsal stripes) (S on left, s+ on right):

* note the red enhancer(s) in these also reddened s+ chick down, even though Co was not present.


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#94231 - 01/30/11 08:32 AM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2914
Loc: Australia
Raf, I thought the following genetics paper might interest you (bit off topic). Don't know if you have read it?
Inheritance of the Silver-Laced Wyandotte Plumage Pattern
(J Hered-1972-MOORE-179-84)
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/63/4/179.full.pdf

* It's where Moore and Smyth test bred S.L. Wyandotte with many different test lines (e+, eb, eWh) & various breeds. Note that 'Lg' was later changed to 'Pg'.

* I was wondering if you have had similar results to Moore & Smyth with lacing on eWh/eWh Co base, ie noticed reduced lacing?

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#94240 - 01/31/11 08:15 AM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: KazJaps]
Raf Offline
Bantam

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Australia
Thanks Kaz,

Yes, I did notice similar things. I am going to troll through the picture archive and show you, but will be later this evening.

Raf

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#94241 - 01/31/11 11:39 AM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: Raf]
Raf Offline
Bantam

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 70
Loc: Australia
Kaz, here are a few pictures, make of them what you will.

This one is a splash laced female from a cross to Blue Silver female. I think it shows the best example of what you are after.



These are all variations from the RIRxWYandotte male over Blue laced GOld females...










Raf

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#94243 - 01/31/11 03:40 PM Re: Red enhancers through Silver [Re: Raf]
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Raf, these serama can be made on both wheaten and eb and hets, this can be seen by chick down.
The recipe you write is correct, and black may be blue, dun or choc as well, no difference.
To me it looked (no test breeding) that the wheaten based, or more wheaten tending hets were best in pattern.
Co may be present impure as well. On wheaten cocoapops the head dot isn't very good seen. Perhaps in the serama there was Db next to Co as well, this could be seen in the by-sickles which were patterened and also more patterning on the wings.
There were a lot of variations. When I say breeds true to colour, that's including these variations in Serama. From a group of growers you could see they were similar patterned.
Youth feathers looked messy in colouring and the eb birds (also hets) had autosomal barring in wings and on shoulders.
Every moult they become more distinct patterned and they are on their best at age 4.
Hens look like patterned wheatens or single laced eb hens with the lace in the middle of the feather, not on the edge. Only the males show an outer black lace on the breast, sometimes shoulders, secondaries, and by-sickles.
I crossed one to a black tailed hen and all sons were cocoapop patterned, so perhaps you can change Co for Db or have both impure and you get the same male pattern.
To me the white/black laced are laced silvers without enough red in stock.
Autosomal red can cause straw coloured hackle in some, not all.
Those look like S/s+ males. I was not capable of testing these since they gave all kinds of chicks, and when there was Di in them some S/s+ (S/S x S/-)sons looked like S/S as if Di doesn't do anything to Mh.
I played a bit with ig and Di but was clueless at the end and quit breeding this colour.

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