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#94576 - 02/16/11 03:06 AM Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff
GSC Offline
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Here are pics of my new pair.

I understand that Buff Laced Dottes would have originally been splash but lately there is a tendancy to breed them with dominant white. The breeder is Richard Rowley (for those of you in the UK) and he tells me there could/would be white and blue off them.

Any suggestions for genotype?

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#94577 - 02/16/11 03:59 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
Sigi Offline
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The hen is a splash (greyish head), you can tell from the tail of the rooster whether he is I/i+ or Bl/Bl. I think he's Bl/Bl from the little visible part of his tail. There should be a few blue splashes in it. When he's I/i+ he has very small black specks in white, and/or a miscoloured feather with black on it.

In the UK buff laced are bred from splash (see head of hen), on the continent they are bred I/i+ (one dose dom.white).
Actually you can mix them although you need a gold laced as well because by breeding I/i+ you will loose red as well over time. If their red is not enhanced by Mahogany you end up with harlequin coloured (blue, black, red, gold feathers in white).

There are true breeding buff laced: chamois Padua (bearded Polish). These only need once in a few generations to be colour boosted by breeding to a gold laced to give extra red.

To me the rooster has very 'black' lower hackle.

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#94579 - 02/16/11 04:55 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Sigi]
GSC Offline
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Thank you Sigi. Would your opinions change if you knew they were bred from birds that could have either Dom White or Splash or combinations of? I'm not sure if you are saying Bl/Bl for the hen(as opposed to BL/bl+) because this how they SHOULD be or whether what you see is clearly splash rather than blue and dominant white.

Originally Posted By: Sigi
In the UK buff laced are bred from splash

HenGen said this also as did a friend of mine, however I do know for a fact that breeders in the UK are using Dom White now so there could well be any mix in the equation.
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#94581 - 02/16/11 05:11 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
GSC Offline
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Rupert from the back.

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#94597 - 02/16/11 10:30 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
GSC Offline
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Am I right in thinking that Dom White would mask Blue/Splash?

Can I assume there is no dominant white when there is evidence of Blue/Splash or does it make a difference when I/i+ v I/I?
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#94606 - 02/17/11 06:41 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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I/i is notoriously leaky and does sometimes allow black spots to show. So if the bird was otherwise blue then these spots could be blue. But itemising possibilities does not give you an answer!
Recently on the UK Ebay someone was selling hatching eggs of the dominant white form of Buff Laced so this mutation does occur in the UK. And it is probable, given human nature, that the two genotypes have/will been/be interbred.
The dominant white form does seem to give a cleaner expression to Buff Laced, as can be seen in what we call Chamois Polish. Similarly other splashised colours, eg Red Pyle and Lemon Pyle Brahmas (in UK) will sooner or later be created using dominant white.
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#94607 - 02/17/11 06:54 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Hen-Gen]
GSC Offline
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Thanks Hen-Gen - looks like it will be fun.
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#94611 - 02/17/11 08:19 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
Sigi Offline
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UK dom. white buff laced come from continental Wyandottes which are dom. white based.
Chamois in the Polish is true breeding dominant white: I/I.
And buff laced is I/i+.

HenGen is correct about dom. white being leaky and showing splashes but far less than splash (Bl/Bl) is.

About Rupert, he could actually be both, since those 2 blue feathers in tail tell he carries blue but how much? splash or only Bl/bl+? This phenomenon of half or whole miscoloured feathers esp. in the tail is also seen in dom. white birds I/i+, in which case those two feathers would be black.
You can test breed him to a gold laced and see what happens.
His hackle is very very white, therefore he could be both: splash and I/i+, or blue and I/i+, or he is a nice clean splash.

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#94615 - 02/17/11 10:04 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Sigi]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Sigi

Chamois in the Polish is true breeding dominant white: I/I.
And buff laced is I/i+.


Interested by this distinction. Are they visually different?
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#94616 - 02/18/11 01:14 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Hen-Gen]
Sigi Offline
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Yes they are different.
Chamois is softer in ground colour since I/I dilutes red as well.
Actually a double dose of dom. white should make also red disappear, although I/I isn't very effective, it needs more (e.g. silver, cuckoo, ig, Di, c, etc) to give a white bird.
And I/i+ is leaky, it gives little black specks which are not in I/I Chamois.

The new disadvantage of I/i+ is the smokey/grey shade which means there are less and less WHITE laced golden birds, of which white is white like 20 years ago. Lots look khaki laced. In Germany they have name for this: pheasant or something like that in Indian Game. That's the (here) always discussed grey shade of dom. white.

Chamois don't have this because they are pure I/I instead of Id/I or I/i+ (yes Henk, just start commenting this, I have no prove just a logical thought ;-)).
http://cache1.willhaben.apa.net/mmo/0/234/179/00_-83565771.jpg
(compare 'white' I/i+ (I say: Id/I) of the indian game with the columbian dotte)

Chamois Polish need Mahogany, therefore the black laced are not gold in ground colour but red. And I/i+ (pre-stage chamois) are just as dark red as the black laced and with just as much black leakage, you never see those in show cages, they are ugly.



Edited by Sigi (02/18/11 01:54 AM)

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#94617 - 02/18/11 01:46 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Sigi]
GSC Offline
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Thanks all - another thread to revisit as I learn more and some of it begins to sinnk in. grin
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#94619 - 02/18/11 02:16 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Thanks for that Sigi. That explanation seems entirely logical.
Unfortunately the UK Poultry Standards include a Chamois Polish ( but no Buff Laced) the description of which is for a Buff Laced. I think it behoves the governing bodies of the National Poultry Clubs of the European (and USA) countries to get together and talk to one another. It seems that the likes of all of us on here are 'ahead of the game' as we say in UK.
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#94622 - 02/18/11 05:29 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Hen-Gen]
Henk69 Offline
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I'll behave smile

Pure dom.white I/I boosts melanizer action. I think that's why jubilee indian game throw all-whites.

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#94630 - 02/18/11 10:59 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Henk69]
Manok Offline
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I am working towards a White tailed "buff" color, made with Bl/Bl. (I say "buff" with quotes, because I'm not getting the rooster's brown very smooth, one-colored.)

I've got nice black tailed buffs, though with some hackle coloring. My Blue tailed buffs are marvelous. Less hackle coloring, plus the blue "camouflages" any left-over pretty good.

But my first batches of White tailed buffs are pretty messy. Especially in the roosters. The amount of white in the hackles & breast is sometimes amazing.

If you talk about "boosting melanizer action", that probably accurately describes what's happening here too.

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#94631 - 02/18/11 11:33 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Manok]
GSC Offline
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Manok - do you have any pics?
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#94635 - 02/19/11 06:08 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
Sigi Offline
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Henk:
Pure dom.white I/I boosts melanizer action. I think that's why jubilee indian game throw all-whites.

------
Is this why GSC's rooster has so much white hackle black?
So he perhaps carries dom. white? Or is so much black lacing in lower hackle normal in the UK?

Hen-Gen: any lofty goal in the fancy runs aground on egos.
Now I have this walnut comb issue at hand in Silkies. There was for years a discussion (everywhere) whether they have a modified rose comb or walnut comb (P,R as on sumatra etc).

No bobo in the fancy is interested in the genetics behind standard features and colours.
In Holland there are no 'ears' to massive errors in the standard descriptions, even of the new ones.
You are treated like a whistleblower: proclaimed you're a psychiatric patient (character murder), neglect, people who you speak to are intimidated or threatened etc.
As if the fancy is Very Important. It isn't, its a hobby, fun.
But for the chicken fancy bobos (and their sycophants) its the equivalent of their ego, like a fat car the extension of masculinity.
Genetic knowledge, esp. when its understood by the sheep (breeders) provokes infantile narcissistic defense mechanisms that obscure the minds of these (old men.
This is in almost every hobby: horses, dogs, falconery, you name it and there's troubles.

Therefore I think you waste your time trying to be the prophet of New Knowledge.
I quit putting energy in the Dutch fancy since its dominated by men. If I had a sex operation I think the reactions were different. LOL
Some male members of the fancy found the Holy Light recently and when they copy my words (from articles, books) its as if they discovered the wheel and they become The New Know It Alls.
Its realy funny to see this psychological 'male' dynamics at work. When a woman says: you are wrong and this is why, she's a bitch. When a man says the same he's very competent.
When a woman likes male flesh she's a you-know, when a man behaves the same he's praised for his masculinity.
Double standards are humour! And in Holland you continue to laugh.

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#94636 - 02/19/11 06:08 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
Manok Offline
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Here are some. Click on them for a larger view; this forum has the max image width set for a 1990's screen size.

Starting with the Black/Blue's:

Typical s+/s+ Bl/bl+ male:


I have used him, but for me this is a very smutty one already:

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#94637 - 02/19/11 06:16 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Manok]
Manok Offline
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But when Bl meets Bl, there's white popping up everywhere, as if my Bl chickens are all heavily melanized.

Typical result:


And my latest 2 roosters amaze me:


Where's my gold?

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#94639 - 02/19/11 08:35 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Manok]
Wieslaw Offline
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While we are at Bl, I have an additional question: can a splash (Bl/Bl) look uniformly light blue? ( no splashes, only 1 darker blue feather in the tail)

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#94645 - 02/20/11 01:31 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Wieslaw]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Thanks for those pictures, Manok. It has been a niggling doubt in my mind for some years now as to why the Copper Splash Marans that result from Blue Copper Marans X Blue Copper Marans invariably have less copper feathers than their siblings. So the suggestion that Bl/Bl acts as a partial eumelaniser is a very attractive theory.
Sigi, as a man it is obvious even to me with my less attuned social antennae that what you say is correct. We do indeed still live in a very patriarchal society. And bringing about real changes in attitudes requires considerable time, extreme tact and diplomacy and, as you say, respect for some fragile egos that may be threatened by intellectual challenge.
Most of us live within a minority sub-culture, be it black, brown, yellow, gay, left handed, disabled, short, bald etc etc. Balance is everything! smile
(Or as Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) said,'A mans gotta know his limitations')


Edited by Hen-Gen (02/20/11 01:46 AM)
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#94651 - 02/20/11 05:49 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Wieslaw]
Muffi Offline
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Loc: Massachusetts, US
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
While we are at Bl, I have an additional question: can a splash (Bl/Bl) look uniformly light blue? ( no splashes, only 1 darker blue feather in the tail)


I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that blue splash silkies have a uniform light blue color due to selection for lavender. I often wondered why my splash silkies were so uniformly light colored while other blue splash birds were essentially white with darker blue splotches. Hopefully an expert will answer your question. I too am curious.

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#94654 - 02/20/11 06:21 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Hen-Gen]
GSC Offline
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Thank you Manok - very interesting pics.
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#94655 - 02/20/11 06:54 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Hen-Gen]
Manok Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hen-Gen
Thanks for those pictures, Manok. It has been a niggling doubt in my mind for some years now as to why the Copper Splash Marans that result from Blue Copper Marans X Blue Copper Marans invariably have less copper feathers than their siblings.


Though a bit disappointed by the first results, I am not without hope that I can get this color right. One rooster is "pretty okay", and one hen is simply "perfect". (But it's difficult to see the problem with hens; the roosters are going to be the bottleneck.)

This coming season I'll be breeding Bl/Bl's to Bl/Bl's, and by the end of the year I should have a fair amount to choose from. (Though I'm not hatching 100's in an incubator, just a half dozen eggs at the time the natural way.)

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#94661 - 02/20/11 08:21 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Manok]
KazJaps Offline
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This one is an unusual combination of Blue Splash:
eWh/eWh S/s+ Bl/Bl:

* There's a tiny bit of dark blue on the saddle.

He's got a little bit of eumelanin restriction on the breast:


He produced a eumelanin restricted ER/eWh silver son (when paired with a Birchen Grey hen), so I think he had at least one dose of Db (probably Db/db+).
When paired with a light blue (Bl/bl+) hen

from the same line he produced a very pale off white daughter (just the slightest hint of blue, if you looked closely)(sorry - no photo).

When paired with the following Blue (double-laced) Indian Game hen, he produced some silver daughters:


Two daughters, one silver blue splash Bl/Bl:


one silver blue Bl/bl+


I can't remember all the sons, except one was s+/s+ Bl/bl+ & a version of Blue Red phenotype.
---------------------

Here's a Blue Splash d'Anver with an even shade of light blue:

* Photo courtesy of Belgian Bantam club of Australia

--------------------

Here's a Blue Splash Silkie rooster that produced all dark charcoal blue offspring when crossed with bl+/bl+:

* inset is one of his charcoal daughters.

--------------------

This hen is silver columbian based, Bl/Bl lav/lav mo/mo:


* she had a small lavender patch somewhere(I think on a wing flight).

Most of my blue based d'Uccles were darker though, & had heaps of eumelanisers segregating. Eg, this following silver columbian based d'Uccle rooster is Bl/Bl lav/lav S mo/mo also:

He had B/b+ too (tested with bl+/bl+ Lav+/Lav+ and bl+/bl+ lav/lav hens).

Except one more distant d'Uccle family that produced Blue Silver Millefleur hens with blue neck hackles but no blue band in the mottling and the pale blue tails would fade to white as adults (ie blue in neck, white body & tail). Will try to find a photo.

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#94663 - 02/20/11 09:12 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Here's the strange Blue Silver Millefleur line where Bl/bl+ hens tails would fade to white:


(* only one parent had Bl/bl+, ie couldn't be genetically Bl/Bl)

Here is one of her Bl/bl+ daughters while young:

*I think this was the one I kept where her tail also faded to white when older. If not, it was a very similar pullet.
(the Blue Silver Mille pullet at top had a different mother)

It's only at times when there was a hint of gold leakage showing in the hens that you could see that they were mo/mo mottled (would see white tips to body feathers, & pale goldish silver elsewhere).

---------------
I think it's a matter of selecting / using the palest blue Bl/bl+ breeding birds, if you want whitish Bl/Bl.
Although the Blue Orp line I had were pale blues (& no /little lacing), but had typical splashed Bl/Bl young.


Edited by KazJaps (02/20/11 09:14 AM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#94676 - 02/20/11 03:07 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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Splash or blue?




By closer examination, there are some dark marks on the tail feathers:



She was hatched from an egg which was labelled blue-red. In some older threads people claimed that it means e+/e+ Bl/bl, but she looks actually like a German blau-goldfarbig here(but lighter):



She is definitely more than just pure wild type with blue, there is too much red.


Her brother looked like the cock here:

http://www.theleghornclub.com/PhotosBlueRed.asp

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#94681 - 02/20/11 08:46 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Wieslaw]
Manok Offline
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Blue...

I get usually this light blue, but sometimes darker. So far I've never had a splash chicken that was blue. Lots of blue feathers, (usually in the tail and saddle), yes, but not "no white at all".

Your hen has definitely much more red than my e+ Bl Drents bantam fowl, which is a typical wild-type breed.

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#94683 - 02/20/11 10:26 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Manok]
GSC Offline
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An excellent thread everyone - one to look back at when I get some chicks hatched - so useful to see photos.
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#95278 - 03/20/11 07:02 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
Choc Offline
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The Buff Laced Bantams (WLR) in the UK certainly all used to be Bl/Bl and came from the Blue Laced (Reds) as sports. They were never regarded as right because of their Blue hackles but used to get shown because we had nothing else better at the time. About 10 years ago, some Dutch stock was imported and that's where the Dominant White gene was bred in. Some breeders (Allan Brooker for one) are beginning to understand the significance of the Dominant White gene and now pride themselves on having 'no Blue' in their lines. Other breeders have mixed things up and still struggle with the whole 'Blue' and 'Dominant White' concept. They seem determined NOT to understand the principles of how black can be changed to white and the genes which are involved. Some simple isolation and test breeding would reveal what they are working with and would give peace of mind. It may sink in one day! All lovely people, regardless smile

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#95285 - 03/21/11 12:31 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Choc]
GSC Offline
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I will try and go for the Dominant White but much depends on what I have in the pair I'm starting with. grin

The female has just started laying so not too long to get some results. Plus I have a few just starting to hatch from the Buff Laced boy in with 3 choc cream partidges.

Hopefully I can unravel what genes the pair have and work from there.
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#95451 - 03/30/11 09:24 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
GSC Offline
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Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 752
Loc: United Kingdom
10 chicks from Rupert to the choc cream girls nad no sign of any white anywhere - they look distinctly blue. Just waiting for a few feathers.
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#95533 - 04/04/11 12:07 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
GSC Offline
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Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 752
Loc: United Kingdom
14 hatched now so enough to declare Rupert a Splash with no Dom White I think.
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#96522 - 05/21/11 01:26 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: GSC]
nzchicke Offline
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Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 75
Loc: South Island NZ
Why is buff laced one dose of dominant white and not 2? what does 2 doses do?

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#96525 - 05/21/11 03:43 PM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: nzchicke]
Marvin Offline
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: nzchicke
Why is buff laced one dose of dominant white and not 2? what does 2 doses do?
it Dilutes buff to much, to keep a nice buff color they have to be het for dominant white...

but thats if you want to keep buff or red color undiluted

now if you want to make a pink bird just like the one below it is said you need dominant white in the mix

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#96530 - 05/22/11 02:02 AM Re: Blue, Splash and Dom White in Laced Buff [Re: Marvin]
Henk69 Offline
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dom.white makes a yolky buff color... wink

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