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#35679 - 03/06/05 08:12 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
I have a chart showing the breeding of Goldens. I would NEVER do it myself, as I breed Dutch and there is the Cream Light Brown variety that breeds true, stronger color, females beautifully distinct, and you do not have the problems that breeding Goldens brings to future generations.

You are right, Golden females are only genetically "golden", they resemble Silver females and you will only be sure which are goldens in certain combinations. I have never seen Golden females exhibited, as they appear just like Silvers.

Light Brown (or BBRed) male x Silver female produces F1,-- all Golden males, all LB or BBRed females.

F2 produces LB males, Golden males, LB females and Golden females (that appear to be Silvers) these females must be marked for future breedings prediction.

On the other hand, breed a Silver male to a LB or BBRed female produces F1, all Golden offspring. It is the next generation that can confuse breeding. F2 will be Golden and Silver males, and LB, Silver and Golden females. Silver males will likely have rust or smut on their backs or shoulders.(and this most often breeds forward.) And in this generation, these Golden females cannot be distinguished from the Silver females, and these females can be a real problem in selecting next breeders. And Golden females sold as Silver females can really mess up future Silver breedings, as the males may carry that rust or smut on the white of the back and shoulders! With space, records,you can have another generation of predictable results that can be posted,, but this is too much to add here, and can really mix up things if birds are not kept well identified. CJR

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#35680 - 03/06/05 08:39 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
CJR Correct me if I am wrong.From the way I understand it the only way for sure to tell if a female is golden is to breed her to a silver male. If she hatches golden males she is golden. If you get 100% silver males than she doesn`t carry the golden gene. And you do have to know that the silver male you use does not carry a golden gene for this to work. Rog
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#35681 - 03/06/05 11:48 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Rob2 Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 3068
Loc: Pennsylvania
The hens I am using in the gold breedings are similar to the light brown hens but the hackles are golden and not red as in the light broen hems?? what then atr these females w. the gold neck hackles?

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#35682 - 03/06/05 11:49 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Online   content
Flock Leader

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
CJR I don't unstand what you meen when you said, "You are right, Golden females are only genetically "golden", they resemble Silver females and you will only be sure which are goldens in certain combinations. I have never seen Golden females exhibited, as they appear just like Silvers." If they are genetically golden, what is the genotype? KazJaps said that the golden genotype was e+/e+,S/s+. Again, if this is the genotype for golden then you could never get a golden hen because silver is sexlinked. Wich meens that at that site a hen can only have one gene present, either S or s+. This would make the colour of the hens silver or black red.
As for the stripes in the neck hackles, like the Light Brown colour, I was wondering if they could be caused by the Dark Brown "Db" gene.
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#35683 - 03/06/05 03:46 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
DUCKBOY, I can't do much more than describe what I learned from H. Gankema, Holland. He lists in his book "Inheritance of Feather Colors", Silver: e+e+SS or S-, Golden: e+e+Ss, autosomal red. H. Gankema described the reason that Silver males so often had the color in the white back and shoulders--using Golden females that looked like Silvers.

Jeffrey does not list Db, but only "modifying genes", AND autosomal red for Goldens. He worked mainly with OEGB. Different breeds, some different results, and much remains to be learned.

I will repeat the formula: Silver male to LB or BBRed female=--all GOLDEN offspring, but the genetically golden females look like Silvers. This is the only color breeding that you can be assured of producing Goldens in all the offspring. Breeding those Goldens together, sorts them back out to Golden and Silver males (Silver males may have rust on them), LB or BBRed, Golden, and Silver females.

The Silver females from this mating, bred to Golden males produces Golden and Silver males and Silver and Golden females (but which are which??) You are in the dark with the females!! It is not good for any breed, as those birds cannot produce what they may be promised, when sold.

Golden female from the same generation bred back to Golden male puts you right back with offspring being Golden and Silver males and Golden, Silver and LB,BBRed females. And on . . .

The Golden male bred to the LB,BBRed female, prodces Silver and LB, BBRed males and Golden and LB,BBRed females. (The Golden female looks like a Silver female, but you know she is Golden from the formula, IF YOU KEEP good RECORDS).

In the early 1900s an artist painted what he was sure would be a Golden female. None ever existed or exists, as painted. Ron Okimoto could have explained it more clearly. This is all I can offer--and it is from several genetics books, as well as direct questions to the authors, to answer questions mainly about how to get the pure white back in the Silver males! (answer, if Golden-bred-maybe NEVER.!)

As for hackle stripe, Red Junglefowl male (Gallus gallus), I think did not have hackle striping, but the female does. The Ceylon Junglefowl male (Gallus Laffayetti) does, his female, only lightly.

There is just a lot no one knows, and we can learn ourselves, quite a bit more, with breedings and good records of results.

I am a collector of genetics information, mainly only the varieties I raise. Am working with Ginger Red right now, that has sorted out from MilleFleur, and Blue Light Brown, F2, F3, F4--and an 9 weeks old female F1xF3 cross is looking like a really nice Blue Buff Columbian. It is possible, but I will be patient until after her first molt! I like to know HOW to do it, and not just be surprised! KazJaps has been a great help. Print out her posts! I am thankful I printed Rokimoto's posts on genetic information!
Carry on. . .
CJR

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#35684 - 03/06/05 06:14 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Online   content
Flock Leader

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
CJR thanks for your info on hackle stripes.
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#35685 - 03/20/05 07:16 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Anonymous
Unregistered


visit this site:

http://groups.msn.com/AmericanLongtailFowl

There are very experienced breeder there that can help.

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#35686 - 03/21/05 05:31 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy)
Duck Boy Online   content
Flock Leader

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Canada
Thyanks I'll check it out.
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#95628 - 04/09/11 04:05 AM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy) [Re: Duck Boy]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
This is an old thread, but in case somebody hits it:

There is no such thing as golden duckwing female. Only a rooster can be a golden duckwing. Females can only be either silver or gold. The words 'golden duckwing' are 'reserved' for roosters which are e+/e+ S/s+. If you see a hen which looks 'golden' then she is most probably cream(or yellow partridge in UK) e+/e+ s+ ig/ig

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#95655 - 04/12/11 05:32 PM Re: longtails & sikver genetics (duckboy) [Re: Wieslaw]
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
We're a lot further now, see how fast we learn, lol

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