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#24397 - 10/19/09 08:13 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Australia
Sigi...
Quote:
To me autosomal red is all red that's not sex-linked.
Autosomal red is as seen on whites both dominant and recessive.
I think the confusion here is in using 'autosomal red' to mean 'phaeomelanin' in general. There needs to be a distinction between the wild type phaeomelanin (types, shades and distribution) and the phaeomelanin modifying genes (ie mutations). What you've described with Recessive White, could in general be called 'red leakage' or 'gold leakage', or 'salmon leakage' (when of e+ salmon breasts, eWh salmon), ie leakage of phaeomelanin (eg as c may also leak eumelanin pigment).

I can't recall where the term came from (maybe from Somes - S -silver a 'leaky gene'?), but I’ve generally called the phenotype where phaeomelanin gold/red is leaking in typical silver areas (ie where S is present in the genotype) as ‘red leakage’ or ‘gold leakage’. Therefore, this term ‘red leakage’ does not define the trait as a mutation or gene per say, but is only a description of phenotype. The following S/- silver Indian Game crossbred hen is what I would describe as ‘red leakage’ of silver:


In this case I know (from various test breeding) that there is at least one red enhancing gene in the genotype (coming from the Indian Games), that it is dominant and autosomal. Therefore this mutation I could call in general terms as being ‘autosomal red’. P.s., this hen does not have Co.

The following is the typical phaeomelanin shades I would get in these lines of Jap roosters:

Left: S/S Silver, Middle S/s+ Golden, Right s+/s+ Orange-Red (Db in there).

The main difference in genotype of the above is the S locus (all were ER/eWh, with eumelanin restrictors – eg Db, & possibly Co, etc). S/s+ golden shades/distribution did vary in intensity and distribution (eg sometimes a more even gold throughout -except slightly darker wing bow (possibly Co, or Db/Co in genotype), sometimes Golden Duckwing shades/distribution (eWh/eWh S/s+ - light/silvery wing bay, light golden neck, darker gold-orange wing bow, etc) , and sometimes reddish wing bows (possibly due to Db alone).

I didn’t segregate s+/s+ Jap roosters that appeared gold diluted (ie always typical shades of wild type phaeomelanin). I never segregated S/S Jap roosters with red leakage, i.e always clean silver (ie no signs of red enhancers in these particular lines). But I sometimes got S/- eumelanin restricted Silver hens with red leakage. The following S/- silver eumelanin restricted Jap hen has the ‘red leakage’ phenotype:


As rokimoto has mentioned previously that it is harder to produce clean silver phenotype with S Db roosters (Db tends to leave residual orange-reddish shades in wing bow area – in his experience), I thought there might be the possibility that the above eWh/eWh hen was S/- Db, & maybe heterozygous for eumelanin restrictor(s). I.e., a possibility of ‘salmon leakage’ or red leakage in general due to the Db gene not being as effective as Co with masking salmon/phaeomelanin, ie expressing Silver. I did start to test breed the above hen, eg with eWh/eWh S/s+ co+/co+ db+/db+ Golden Wheaten rooster. But I wasn’t confident that I had left enough time to exclude the previous rooster (Black-tailed Silver/gold S/s+ eWh/eWh + eumelanin restrictors) as a parent, with the first clutch hatched after exchanging roosters. The hen produced the following chicks from this setting:

Two silver cockerels left/middle, one gold Co pullet on the right.

I can tell that the pullet has Co, due to buff chick down and clean buff-orange ground colour. Unfortunately by this stage I had had enough of the very poor Jap type coming from these lines, so decided to part with all of these. Therefore I didn’t get to test this hen again. So I never did find out the genotype & what was causing the red leakage with some of these silver hens. But I did suspect that they were heterozygous for eumelanin restrictors, due to segregating Wheaten (phenotype –ie no eumelanin restrictors) from the same parent birds. Just mentioning it here, as an example, a means to test for eumelanin restrictors (& whether het.), phaeomelanin intensifiers/diluters, ie a means to work out what causes red leakage in Silver S birds. It doesn’t have to be due to red enhancing mutations alone, ie other possibilities are het. eumelanin restrictors, the effectiveness of partial eumelanin restrictors (ie in masking wild type phaeomelanin), etc.

So this is why I think it is better not to use the term ‘autosomal red’ with silver birds with red leakage phenotype, when the genotype is undefined. And it is just too confusing for us The-Coop old timers, if you use the term ‘autosomal red’ when describing ‘salmon leakage’ in e+ & eWh S/- hens smile . The former is in reference to red enhancing mutations, the later is in reference to wild type salmon pigmentation, ie they have different definitions regarding genotypes.

So sigi, I understand where you are coming from, but there will always be this confusion if a singular term (eg autosomal red) is used in text with two different definitions.

The same has occurred in the past with the term ‘recessive black’. For example, Smyth developed an eb black (solid black adult plumage) test line, commonly called “Recessive Black” (or Massachusetts Recessive Black, etc) by rokimoto and others. This phenotype is produced by multiple eumelanisers on eb, ie is not a single mutation. Then we have Jeffrey segregating an autosomal recessive eumelaniser in OEGB, and not giving the mutation a symbol, just referring to this mutation as “recessive black’ in text. Then we have Brian Reeder using the same term ‘recessive black’ – rb in reference to his theory that the difference between wheaten phenotypes/inheritance mode of ey and eWh is due to eumelanisers only.

So it is just a matter of getting on the ‘same page’ with each other, ie knowing what is meant by the definition of specific terms. It’s the same scenario of using the same breed variety name, but for two different variety types (eg BBRed Partridge e+ wild type and Partridge Wyandotte eb Pg). May I suggest in the future we don’t use words to define new terms, where these words have been used in the past for a different meaning. Much easier to use new names for new terms than to go to the trouble of explaining the definition every time the word is used, ie trying to explain context smile . It must be a nightmare for those of you where ‘English’ is a second language wink . Just a mini ‘bad dream’ for me personally smile .

---------------
P.s.

Oh really, lol learn't a new one - emoticons are regarded as 'images', therefore we are limited to 8 in total per post. Lol, can't 'emoticon smile' again as I've used up my quota already.

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#24398 - 10/20/09 07:34 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Australia
Maybe the following will help further to illustrate what Jeffrey, rokimoto and others describe as "Autosomal Red'.

The following Silver Wheaten hen has the genotype: eWh/eWh S/-



As Jeffrey has indicated (in Bantam Breeding & Genetics/Bantam Chickens), these Silver Wheatens Do NOT have "Autosomal Red". The salmon pigment is a part of the wild type phenotype/genotype. I.e., they have a slightly different phenotype/genotype to Salmon Faverolles.

-----------------

Salmon Faverolles have been test bred/researched in the past (eg Kimball) and found to have a red enhancing mutation. This is probably why the roosters have reddish wing bows, etc, and the hens tend to have a darker salmon shade. I.e., Salmon Faverolle are not just eWh/eWh S/S or S/-in genotype. Probably why Jeffrey lists Salmon Faverolle as having "autosomal red" is that they don't tend to have the other traits of Mh - Mahogany - ie spangling of the breast in roosters and extension of phaeomelanin (into typical eumelanin-black wildtype areas). I.e. Mh not only intensifies phaeomelanin pigment but also is a partial eumelanin restrictor.

------------------

The following Blue silver Wheaten hen is a F1 Jap crossbred (father a eWh/eWh S/s+ Bl/bl+ co+/co+ Wheaten Jap, mother single comb Indian game crossbred):


Once again slightly different phenotype/genotype to Salmon Faverolles, but what is in common with with the latter is the presence of a red enhancing mutation wink . If you wanted to, you could say the above hen has "autosomal red" (as it was an autosomal gene), but why not just leave all this confusion behind with the term 'autosomal red', and call it an 'autosomal phaeomelanin intensifier' smile ,

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#90510 - 07/20/10 03:37 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
bump

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#96227 - 05/05/11 07:17 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Poultch]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
bump, again.

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#96236 - 05/06/11 07:03 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Poultch]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
I think I may have to print this....!

Can I summarize this whole thread and share it? I'm in a duckwing breeders group, but if point them to this thread, it's so long some will not be able to get through it. Ar has come up recently....


Edited by Jenks (05/06/11 07:05 AM)

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#96237 - 05/06/11 07:13 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Chook-in-Eire]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Chook-in-Eire
Looking for something else entirely, I stumbled across this 2003 post by Dr. Okimoto .
wink


Does post referred to not exist anymore?

Nevermind about a summary. I don't think there is anyway to summarize this.

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#96241 - 05/06/11 08:54 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Jenks]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
My gosh...I have a whole new perspective.

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#96242 - 05/06/11 09:20 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Maybe the following will help further to illustrate what Jeffrey, rokimoto and others describe as "Autosomal Red'.

The following Silver Wheaten hen has the genotype: eWh/eWh S/-



As Jeffrey has indicated (in Bantam Breeding & Genetics/Bantam Chickens), these Silver Wheatens Do NOT have "Autosomal Red". The salmon pigment is a part of the wild type phenotype/genotype. I.e., they have a slightly different phenotype/genotype to Salmon Faverolles.

-----------------

Salmon Faverolles have been test bred/researched in the past (eg Kimball) and found to have a red enhancing mutation. This is probably why the roosters have reddish wing bows, etc, and the hens tend to have a darker salmon shade. I.e., Salmon Faverolle are not just eWh/eWh S/S or S/-in genotype. Probably why Jeffrey lists Salmon Faverolle as having "autosomal red" is that they don't tend to have the other traits of Mh - Mahogany - ie spangling of the breast in roosters and extension of phaeomelanin (into typical eumelanin-black wildtype areas). I.e. Mh not only intensifies phaeomelanin pigment but also is a partial eumelanin restrictor.

------------------

The following Blue silver Wheaten hen is a F1 Jap crossbred (father a eWh/eWh S/s+ Bl/bl+ co+/co+ Wheaten Jap, mother single comb Indian game crossbred):


Once again slightly different phenotype/genotype to Salmon Faverolles, but what is in common with with the latter is the presence of a red enhancing mutation wink . If you wanted to, you could say the above hen has "autosomal red" (as it was an autosomal gene), but why not just leave all this confusion behind with the term 'autosomal red', and call it an 'autosomal phaeomelanin intensifier' smile ,




In the case of the hen at the bottom - you think that is the notiorious Ar on silver blue wheaten? Not just pure wheaten with no Di plus Bl and Silver on eWh? And this is because of the concentration in the shoulder/wing area? Then if Mahogany is present, it enhances the red of just the notorious Ar?


Edited by Jenks (05/06/11 09:23 AM)
Edit Reason: removing stupid questions

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#96280 - 05/08/11 06:36 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Jenks]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
OK - in the Sigi/Hancox basics book, on page 18 and 19, it shows a silver breasted female duckwing....(the creations of exhibition lines)

It looks to attribute the salmon breast to Ar+ seperate from e+ ?

if not, what makes the silver breast in an e+/e+?

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#96283 - 05/08/11 12:38 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Jenks]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Heterozygous e+ with wheaten or brown (eb) could have that effect. Or maybe a red diluter.

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