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#104079 - 06/06/12 09:35 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Here is another one that my friend bred out from my Bloodline.




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#104426 - 06/27/12 09:22 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California



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#112250 - 02/24/14 04:21 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
sarimanok Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/17/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: Henk69
I believe there are at least 3 alleles, dunno how much genes.
1st allele the wildtype
2nd allele the palebreasted/non salmon breast type
3rd allele the enhanced type like in serama cocopop coloration

The 2nd type could also be het wheaten or het eb.
The red shoulders of purebreed silver cockerels could be mahogany involvement or another enhanced type of Autosomal red.
I have no trouble breeding intense salmonbreasted pullets and clean white shouldered S/S cockerels from the same parents.

I often get 50:50 ratio's cockerels with non red shoulders (all golden) and red/orange shoulders when crossing silver and gold dutch bantams. Small numbers though.


If there are indeed different alleles of autosomal reds behaving somewhat differently from each other then using the same code Ar for all would create confusion right?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Quote from: http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-expression-of-autosomal-pheomelanin.html
"The five commonly seen e-alleles are e+ (duckwing), eb (brown), eWh (wheaten), ER (birchen) and E (extended black). Most simply stated, Autosomal pheomelanin is found on all of these alleles, though the distribution effect is somewhat different on each allele, most visibly on the females in several cases. The Inhibitor of Autosomal pheomelanin can also be found on, and express on, all of the e-alleles.

The males of all five e-alleles are much alike in their expression of Aph or Aph^I. There are subtle differences between the males of each allele that we will discuss below, but it is the females where Aph and/or Aph^I are often most visible and variable, and help to create the unique appearances that we most relate to the e-alleles.

As I stated in my article last month, I feel that Aph is found in all of the jungle fowls and that Aph^I is found in the gray jungle fowl and perhaps also in the green jungle fowl" Quote
==========================================================================================

Regarding Autosomal pheomelanin being more visible in females than males according Reeder, it is the opposite in the expression of autosomal red in the "Pumpkin" gamefowl. In the Pumpkin gamefowl it is in the males where the red brown breast expresses very strongly while in pumpkin females, autosomal red has very little expression on the breast; it is actually on the hens hackles, wing cover and back where autosomal red is lightly detected.

I believe this autosomal red in the pumpkin gamefowl is different from Reeder's autosomal pheomelanin.

Is the pumpkin Ar wild type or a new mutation; how is it determined? Is the pumpkins Ar found in all jungle fowls?

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Quote: Originally Posted by Blackdotte2 at http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92274#Post92274

Reeder give the genotype of Redquill as e+/e+ s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Pg/Pg Db/Db
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The genotype given has Ar with + meaning Ar+ is wild type for the Red Quill.

If the genotype of the Red Quill has wild type Ar+ as described by Reeder, how come Red Quill males have stronger expression of Ar on the breast than female RQ? This is opposite to Reeder's own statement quoted above.

Could anyone pls post links to any post by Reeder regarding actual crosses he's done using the Red Quill. tnx

The Salmon Faverolles and Rhode Island Reds are said to carry Ar. Is their Ar the same as that of the Pumpkin's Ar? Male Pumpkins and RIR both have similar red brown breasts but why do their hens have different colored breasts?

The CocoPop Serama's, Red Quill's and Pumkin's Ar seem to be similar to each other but different from others ...

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#112251 - 02/25/14 12:44 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
sarimanok Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/17/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Philippines
Figuring out the genetics of the "Pumpkin" color, with the help of Henk and others, it was determined
to be at least Ar/_ Db/_ Id/+ or Id/Id. The Db removing the black on the breast and Ar putting the
red brown in place of the black. This means that without the Db there will be no red brown breast
expression in male Pumpkins, right? If two genes are needed for the red brown breast phenotype in
Pumpkin males to express then the trait is polygenic, right?

If the red brown breast of male pumpkins is due to Ar and Db together then the two genes can segregate.
Crossing a het Ar/ar Db/db to an ar/ar db/db only 25% of the offspring will be Ar/ar Db/db havin
red brown breast right?

Could it be possible for a new single gene mutation to code for red brown breast phenotype
without the help of Db? Is it a must that Db is always needed?

If expression of the male pumpkin red brown breast phenotype is due to a single gene "Ar", then a
het Ar/ar x ar/ar will produce 50% of the offspring with red brown breast Ar/ar right?

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#112252 - 02/25/14 01:57 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: sarimanok]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2946
Loc: Netherlands
Db necessary? Not in my opinion. I think there is some henny coloring factor in play. Autosomal red may express more on rooster's breast because there is supposed to be a lot of pigment there (normally black).

RIR also have Mahogany Mh. My crosslings (with silver lakenvelder) did not express a lot of red, so I have my doubts about them having the strong version of autosomal red... wink

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#112262 - 02/25/14 07:25 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2148
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the links to updated Brian Reeder articles. Very good in clarification. So now we have an acceptable genetic name & symbol (although not perfect: no need for superscript -locus named after single mutation allele):

Inhibitor of Autosomal Pheomelanin (AphI, or Aph^I)

This should make it clear to everyone that the trait found by Brian Reeder (in Phoenix) is an inhibitor of phaeomelanin, something completely different to Hutt's "Autosomal Red", the latter a generic term (not a specific mutation) in reference to Hutt's observation of phaeomelanin intensifiers.

So now forget about the "Ar" posted by Blackdotte2 in reference to Brian Reeder's "Ap" Autosomal Phaeomelanin.

The wild-type nomenclature is Aph+, Aph^+ or Aph+ (Brian doesn't like to use wild-type symbols). Although, AphI seems to be incompletely dominant (minor expression in heterozygotes), so maybe aph+, aph^+ or aph+ for the wild-type?

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#112264 - 02/25/14 08:37 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2148
Loc: Australia
Note that Db was NOT found in an exhibition RIR line (Malone 1975), not in a New Hampshire line (Smyth et al), nor in a Buff Minorca rooster (Brumbaugh & Hollander) - these researchers had the genotypes segregated out with test breeding.

Smyth et al. segregated out Db from Fayoumi (ER autosomal barred) & Buttercup (e^bc) fowl. Campo et al. segregated Db from Villafranquina (eb) fowl. Carefoot did some crossbreeding with Buff Rock bantams & believed Co & Db present, believed Co & Db in Sebrights, Db co+ in Silver Spangled Hamburg, but did not segregate out the mutations on to wild-type.

So it is important not to make assumptions on adult phenotypes alone (the same/similar phenotype can be produced from multiple genotypes), & there could be variation from line to line.

Ref (Db papers):
JAY W. MOORE, HENRY L. CLASSEN, and J. ROBERT SMYTH, JR.
Further Studies on the Db Plumage Color Locus in the Fowl
Poultry Science (1978) 57 (4): 829-834 doi:10.3382/ps.0570829
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/4/829.full.pdf+html

Jay W. Moore and J. Robert Smyth, Jr.
Genetic Factors Associated with the Plumage Pattern of the Barred Fayoumi
Poultry Science (1972) 51 (4): 1149-1156 doi:10.3382/ps.0511149
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/4/1149.full.pdf+html

J. L. CAMPO and C. ALVAREZ
Genetics of the Black-Tailed Red Plumage Pattern in Villafranquina Chickens
Poultry Science (1988) 67 (3): 351-356 doi:10.3382/ps.0670351
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/67/3/351.full.pdf+html

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I'm not aware of any test breeding by geneticists of Game fowl with Db-like phenotypes (Ginger Reds, Pumpkin, etc), but Db-like ER brown chick down (black down changed to brown) & dilution/modification of e+ chick down typical of Smyth's Db descriptions is commonly noted by Gamefowl breeders.

Would be interesting to get hold of Ziehl & Hollander's ID Dun paper, as they extracted the mutation from a pit game.

Ziehl MA, Hollander WF (1987) Dun, a new plumage-color mutant at the I-locus in the fowl (Gallus gallus). Iowa State J Res 62: 337342.

------------------------------
Also note that both Mh and Di mutations have been described as partial eumelanin restrictors, ie adding phaeomelanin. Eg, if you have a black-breasted red base patterned rooster (e+, eb, or eWh based) with a deeper red phaeomelanin than typically found in the Red Jungle Fowl, then you know the red enhancing mutation is NOT Mh (Mh adds phaeomelanin to both male & female).

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#112267 - 02/26/14 12:38 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2148
Loc: Australia
In the following Gunnarsson et al. 2011 paper:

The Dark brown plumage color in chickens is caused by an 8.3-kb deletion upstream of SOX10.
Pigment Cell Melanoma Res. 2011 Apr;24(2):268-74. doi: 10.1111/j.1755-148X.2011.00825.x. Epub 2011 Jan 25.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21210960

The Db mutation was extracted & sequenced from a Leghorn experimental line (Obese strain). The same mutation was DNA sequenced in:

- Friesian Fowl
- Fayoumi
- Westfalische Totleger

Need for someone to DNA test for Db in Games & Seramas

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#112269 - 02/26/14 02:28 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2946
Loc: Netherlands
I would love to see his pictures.

Brian seems to have found the "naked" E-hen!

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#112276 - 02/26/14 04:18 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 429
Loc: Germany

Originally Posted By: KazJaps


Would be interesting to get hold of Ziehl & Hollander's ID Dun paper, as they extracted the mutation from a pit game.

Ziehl MA, Hollander WF (1987) Dun, a new plumage-color mutant at the I-locus in the fowl (Gallus gallus). Iowa State J Res 62: 337342.



I have digitalized it.
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post12
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