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#24357 - 04/26/09 01:25 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Online   content
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Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2994
Loc: Netherlands
In the article the cream dilution is birdwide, not limited to hackle and saddle.

A cream duckwing would have lighter wing triangles.
http://www.hollandsekriel.nl/kleurslagenpagina%27s/470/geelpatrijs%20haan470.jpg

...

The article does mention that mahogany and cream don't mix, maybe on the females to a cold chestnut.

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#24358 - 04/26/09 02:54 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by Henk69:
In the article the cream dilution is birdwide, not limited to hackle and saddle.

A cream duckwing would have lighter wing triangles.
http://www.hollandsekriel.nl/kleurslagenpagina%27s/470/geelpatrijs%20haan470.jpg

...

The article does mention that mahogany and cream don't mix, maybe on the females to a cold chestnut.
Well, on p. 329 Punnett writes "... that not only pullets but cockerels also were produced which were very close to the Brown Leghorn type of plumage." So these would have been pretty dark brown (presumably eb) as the Dark Brown Leghorns below, despite carrying cream.


EDIT: Correction: The author just states "Brown Leghorn", not "Dark Brown Leghorn". So did he use Light or Dark ones?

To reiterate the matings, here is a summary:

F1: Brown Leghorn male X Columbia-like cream [from Buff Leghorn X cream F2]
= all golds with non-descript melanic markings

F2: = c.75% golds, c.25% cream

> of cream F2 darkest pullets selected which closely approached general colouration of Brown Leghorn females
> cream F2 males predominantly light, 'a good deal splashed with chestnut and black'

F3: "Splashed" F2 male X cream F2 Brown Leghorn type pullet
= 2 classes:
Female 1) breast colour salmon or nearly full salmon
Female 2) breast colour pale salmon or only salmon tinged
Male 1) as male F2 parent
Male 2) approaching nearly Brown Leghorn

F4 (and following?) "utlimately established a strain with typical Brown Leghorn plumage but on a cream ground instead of on a gold one" where the "hen closely resembles a silver-grey" and the males have the white edging in hackles and black and white rather than black and gold secondaries.

That description of the male would seem to fit Sigi's founder male with the mahogany wing bay.

chook

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#24359 - 04/27/09 10:11 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Krys Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 27
Loc: Minnesota
Brown Leghorn in UK is same as light brown leghorn in US. As Punnett will have meant e+.

I had cream brown leghorns. David Francis' birds from David Applegarth when re-creating Cream Legbars. I could not, with any certainty, distinguish the chicks from the gold based brown chicks. The expression seemed more varied in pullets varying from looking much like silver duckwing, though slightly browner in the body, to a warmer coloured bird looking cream in hackles & browner in body. Darker areas finely laced with cream. The breast did not seem affected. The males seemed more consistently coloured cream in neck & saddle hackles, shoulders chestnut, wing triangle cream. (same colour as in pic above).
Don't know if that helps.

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#24360 - 04/27/09 03:40 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
I lack brains, the grey mass to be more specific.
Is there a look-a-like somewhere on internet you can post here of how those mahogany leghorns look when ig/ig hit them? Breed doesn't matter.

I need pictures, I am a picture person because my phantasy is too large, it can be anything in my head. I can't make an image of words. And I am very much interested. Thanks.

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#24361 - 05/04/09 03:16 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland

Is this a gold or silver bird?
'Orange farbig Welsumer bantam, german colour"
(orange coloured)

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#24362 - 05/04/09 03:37 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by Sigi:
Is this a gold or silver bird?
'Orange farbig Welsumer bantam, german colour"
(orange coloured)
I'd say it's a gold. Look here:
http://www.welsumer.de/bilder.htm
Silvers are at the bottom.

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#24363 - 05/04/09 03:46 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Online   content
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2994
Loc: Netherlands
Gold.
The salmon breast is not too much affected by the cream ig/ig.

Interesting pic.
Pleads for autosomal red involvement in welsumer.

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#24364 - 05/17/09 05:30 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Text next to photo says: Orangefarbig, orange coloured, I'd say its a silver with autosomal red. SG 95 E Very Good 95 points.
Seems logic its a silver since the Germans made a silver Welsumer.
And the Welsumers in Germany carry Ml, therefore the light feather quils in hens and 'spangled' breast in males. The country of origin opposes the German standard which is forced upon the Dutch breed club by the...... DUTCH standard commission.
In other words: how to fritter a breed....
On the judges congress last Saturday there was a presentation and suddenly the judges were told to stick to the Dutch standard. The breed club was told different...Perhaps because I've made a lot of noise?
But this is off topic although the S/- Ar+/Ar+ is called orange, lol

I made these photos today:




She's a cross between columbian and silver laced (cochin bantam).
Goal was to improve type and size and 'add' Co in order to 'open' the lacing. We've had autosomal red for years in the SL cochin bantams, culled 90% of the roosters and now this in a pullet.
The columbian was bought in Germany, they have the largest cochin bantams. We cull all offspring of this year (which means: they go to people in the city for back yard upholstery) because we are NOT waiting for again lots of Ar+ which you see after youth feathers moult out, so will take a few months.

Just an example.... its not just a 'male' issue as you see, this unwanted red (LOL).

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#24365 - 05/17/09 09:48 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Manok Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 638
Loc: Netherlands
I have been thinking whether it would not be possible to ENHANCE the red in such culls, in order to come to a new color variety. Use this "Ar" to do the opposite to Silver, to what ig is doing to s+.

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#24366 - 05/18/09 12:27 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Online   content
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2994
Loc: Netherlands
I like it too.

Orange is used in Germany for cream ligt browns and partridges too. And if silver they mean the het kind.

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