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#99523 - 10/12/11 03:31 AM Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2?
Michel Offline
Bantam

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Netherlands
Your thoughts on the colour and pattern genotypes in this ‘partridge’ to ‘buff’ Silkie F2, please.

First of all: hi, ladies and gentlemen at the coop. I’ve been reading along with you guys for a bit in this section of the coop. I'd like to ask you what you think about these F2 chicks I got when it comes to the colour and pattern genes they are showing or could be carrying. I’ve got my own thoughts and suspicions about this lot described below, especially after reading Sigi’s books and here at the coop, and now I would really appreciate to hear what you think.

I’ve got 15 chicks from June this year and they’re the F2 from the F1 cross made last year.
The Parents were a ‘buff’ roo and 4 different hens in partridge, black and white.
The ‘’ I use because this F1 batch contained white offspring and I doubt the ones that were showing ‘buff’ actually carry the whole 50% of the standard buff genotype. So at least the P roo was C+/c, as the F1 white hen didn’t give any white chicks. I have no further background info on him.

The male part of the F1 consists of a ‘buff’ roo. Supposed to be split for the buff genotype. This F1 roo looks a copy (in phenotype at least) of the P roo. His hackle appears clean, but carries a bit of black in them close to his back. He’s hasn’t got purine on his ears. I’ve let him mate with a black and a white (half-) sister. The white one has purine on her ears, the black one doesn’t. The roo’s down is white with a hint of grey towards where the colour of the feather starts.




The 15 chicks from June contain 13 that were from this cross. Of 2 I know for certain that they came from this cross. Of the other 13 I know that 11 are from this F1 and 2 are from the P roo crossed to different, buff partridge looking, F1 hens. Unfortunately I don’t know which 2 don’t belong. But maybe this info comes in handy when looking at this batch.

The 13 (+2 which died in the first weeks), with 2 that don’t belong to the F2. Which ones, anyone?
1 black chick, 2 eb(?) brown chicks, 1 yellow and 1 yellow with remnants of wildstripes on it’s back, 1 gold chick (shining strawgold on top with grey down underneath shining through) and the rest of them where various shades of orangey with the odd sized couple of spots or stripes on the back of their necks and very minimal eyestripes.



This cockerel had yellow chick down with two thin spot like stripes on the back of its neck. He had the remnants of wildstripes on its back. Nowadays he has grey down underneath his feathers.




This pullet came out as a light yellow chick, which I was expecting to turn white, but after a couple of days a light brown with a hint of black spot appeared on the back of her neck. She’s ended up a very light lemon? Sand? She’s got white down now.




Six of the chicks looked similar to the ones displayed below.




Rest in next post...

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#99524 - 10/12/11 03:32 AM Re: Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2? [Re: Michel]
Michel Offline
Bantam

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Netherlands
And they turned out like this. All six have white down at their feathers’ base. Of the three pullets, two are rather similar, even though they appear different shades on the pictures. The first one has a very even shade of what I would could yellow and blue coloured ears. Her sister is the same shade, but a lot less even coloured, a lot more patchy, with white down seeming to peep through. Her ear is blue but not completely. The third pullet is the same shade, but has black on her upper parts, meaning her head, lower neck and back, upper wings and cushion.
The three cockerels are pretty much alike pattern wise.








This gold chick turned into a cockerel carrying two different shades of down on different parts of it’s body. He’s got both white and grey down on different areas of his body. Other than that he’s pretty similar to the he three cockerels above, besides appearing still more ‘golden’ or less patchy with white.




More in next post...

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#99525 - 10/12/11 03:33 AM Re: Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2? [Re: Michel]
Michel Offline
Bantam

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Netherlands
This was the only orange chick with stripes on it’s back and a different eyestripe. He turned into a cockerel with grey down beneath his orangey feathers.



These two wildtype looking chicks turned into tweo very different looking cockerels. But colour wise the differences seem to be restricted to the amount of black, the first has a lot more black in his tail and wing, and the shade of orange the display which seems to be caused by the colour of their down; the first has all dark grey down and the second has both dark grey and white down on different parts of his body. I especially like the colour on this second cockerel. Unfortunately just about everything, apart from his colour, is wrong with this little fellow.








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#99526 - 10/12/11 03:33 AM Re: Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2? [Re: Michel]
Michel Offline
Bantam

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Netherlands
And the last bit…

This partridge pullet hatched as a black chick. With her I wonder what’s causing the banding/striping on her wings? And would she still be able to carry some of these ‘buff’ genes although she doesn’t show them?




These two cockerels are from this F2 cross for sure, hatched 10 days later than the others.
The first one had brown chick down. The second one was black, just like the chick shown above. Both have grey down now.





In short: it’s a GGG, but without me having the correct answers at this moment, if ever.

I’m especially curious about the e-allele(s) and about the ‘buff’ genes. And also to the more general question why buff can’t be explained, as I read on the calculator page it was I think, with just the known genes?

Thanks in advance!

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#99532 - 10/12/11 01:59 PM Re: Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2? [Re: Michel]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 657
Loc: New Zealand
Welcome to the coop Michel!

your last black ones look birchen (ER), not partridge (eb) the stripping you see is most likely Db (which is a key component of buff) The browns in your 2nd post look like eb's, the whole coloured chicks wheaton and the mixed ones most likely split eWh/eb.
There are too many silkie world experts here for me to add anything they wont, hope they will see your pics and answer your q's soon.

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#99535 - 10/12/11 04:45 PM Re: Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2? [Re: Poultch]
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
To me the last black ones are hen: melanized eb including Pg/Pg without Di, could be she carries ig (cream for yellow partridge) hidden since its a recessive but she could have lost it. The stippling or pattern is Pg. Perhaps her clean breast could be due to one Db. This gives a bit of a duckwing (e+) appearance.


The last two cockerels look to me like 1st: melanized wheaten (no stripes in hackle) and actually looks like lacking Pg as well.
The 2nd a melanized eb, actually a gold leaking eb based black.
This could come from the white grandmom since most silkies are bred black and white together.
Black is eb/eb black, therefore the roosters alway have leakage in hackle. On the Continent there are no E black Silkies for as far as I know.

All the others wheatens and eWh/eb hets (heterozygous birds).
Super super documentation Michel!!!!
Very good quality photos as well.

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#99536 - 10/12/11 04:48 PM Re: Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2? [Re: Sigi]
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Michel, what I don't understand, where comes the half beard from in some of F1?

I see single combs, this means both parents have a rose comb, this explains the wattles on both.

Perhaps the white hen has a half beard? I can't see it on the photo.

When rosecomb and half beard she does have small wattles.
When she had a walnut comb her wattles would have been gone, lol

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#99552 - 10/13/11 12:33 PM Re: Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2? [Re: Sigi]
Michel Offline
Bantam

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Netherlands
Thanks for the warm welcome and the replies!

I'm personally doubting ER is in the mix, because it would be unlikely in Silkies, as most blacks are melanized eb's, but I hope to find out for sure in the 2011 F3 and some F2 to F1 crosses. As unlikely doesn't equal knowing...

My thoughts were eb and eWh and their mix are their base. So, correct me if I'm wrong and the above is true, the down feathers being either grey or white or mixed are giving me the proper clues to whether they're eb/eb or eb/eWh or eWh/eWh... Right?

And the melanized partridge F2 pullet is letting me know Pg is playing a part in this line.

Sigi: What is making the colour difference in the 'buff' F2 chicks, the pullets especially? Is that Di or ig or both? As I'm seeing at least 3 differerent shades; orange, yellow, lighter than yellow...

And am I correct to expect in this F2 both Db and Co are playing a role in all their to be expected relative Mendelian percentages?

The F1 only has the melanized black hen carrying one dose of Mb. Looking at the F2, and judging to type I doubt the white hen is carrying any M at all, but in theory she could be and just not show it properly. In the F2 only the 'tigerstriped' orangey cockerel is showing the one dose of Mb. This comes from some of the mothers in the P generation. The roo was unbearded. The percentages in the chicks carrying Mb seems to be declining faster than I would expect when counting on it's know behaviour. Possibly some chicks that carry one dose of Mb are not showing it as well as these 2 are.
Next year I'll be breeding them to some pretty decent pure Mb silver pencilled hens and start selecting for it.

The single combs I expect to have entered with the original P buff roo. This unpleasant surprise popped up in the F2 for the first time, known P hens never did with other roos. So all F1 parents are R/r+. 50% of the F2 is showing single comb (and according to Murphy's law; the most interesting half... grrrr ;-) )
I don't think P (peacomb) is in this line. All chickens have wattles, variable in size, but never lacking as I've seen in your PDF on missing wattles.

And besides the comb shape there's plenty more to select for in this lot, note the split wings in some, and you should see some of their feet...:-( Plenty of things to follow up on coming breeding season.

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#99558 - 10/13/11 11:39 PM Re: Genotypes 'Buff' to 'partridge' Silkie F2? [Re: Michel]
Henk69 Online   content
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2996
Loc: Netherlands
The shades of gold can be explained by the different e-loci and/or pureness of columbian like restrictors.

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