A question came up on one of the poultry lists I belong to about breeding bantams, and how bantam varieties of larger breeds started. For instance, bantam Orpingtons, Langshans, Wynadottes, R.I. Reds, etc., not the true bantams like Silkies or Belgian Booteds where there is no large fowl variety. Is there a single gene that causes the smaller size, or are a lot of different genes involved? When someone decided that they wanted a bantam Orpington, for example, did they simply cross a large Orpington with an existing bantam that was as close to body type and color as possible? Did they start originally with something like an Old English Game bantam just to get the bantam gene or genes? I hope I'm being clear on this. Thanks.
Hi,
Silkies are true bantams, not miniatures.
The short answer is that there are many genes, and if you believe the histories some people bred bantams from the standard sized birds by selecting smaller animals and some crossed in known bantam breeds to get the smaller size and then bred for the correct body and color type.
I intend no offense to anyone by this post. My view of the 'true' bantam versus the 'miniature' ('non-true' bantam) chicken issue is that it is meaningless. Like I said, no offense intended.
I'm the person who originally asked the question. Thanks, Dr. Okimoto, for a very helpful and useful answer to my question. I appreciate it a lot. If it were not for your presence here, I would have stopped coming to this board a while ago. I'm getting tired of so many opinionated rants and put-downs of people asking questions by other posters on this board.
Hi,
P.S. to anon. not everyone on this board put down others....only a select few.
I had no intention of hurting anyone's feelings or 'putting down' anyone. I tried to make that clear at the outset of my post. I have an opinion about this topic to which I have every right, as you have to yours. I believe I support my opinion with a logical argument, which I enunciated for everyone to evaluate for themselves. Yes, I have opinions ... as all intelligent, thinking people do ... I am not always right and am willing to admit my mistakes.
Very interesting posts, anon. I've never really thought about miniatures v. bantams like you put it...I guess 'cause I'm just not interested in them! But I would like to note that, in the book you quoted "A guide to raising chickens", Ms. Damerow has a chart about the bantams. I think most people support the "true"-"miniature" theorem, if that's what it really is.
I myself am curious as to whether the person who wrote the original question (as Anonymous) is the same person that wrote the post directly after Rokimoto (also as Anonymous).
By Daniel (Pollo) on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 04:18 pm:
I just have a question.....are Silkies true bantams? I thought that there were larger ones too.
By Josh on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 05:52 pm:
By Rokimoto on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 08:55 pm:
There is sex-linked dwarfism and autosomal dwarfism. The sex-linked dwarfism (dw) has been identified as the growth hormone receptor gene. There is an allele of dw that makes the birds around 10% smaller than those with the normal gene and it has been found in bantams. There are obviously more genes that alter the size of the bird. There is another allele of dw that reduces the body size by 30% for females and even more for males, but It is a knock out mutation (destroys the function of the gene) and I don't know if it is found in bantams. Human pygmies have mutations in the growth hormone receptor gene. Mutations in this gene seem to affect overall body size without altering proportions.
There is an autosomal dwarf gene, but I don't know if an allele has been characterized in bantam breeds. Body size and shape are the traits that are most easily selected for. Many genes seem to be involved and they have a highly additive effect. Additivity just means that one copy of the allele does half the job as two copies so you can tell the difference between homozygotes and heterozygotes. This means that you can easily select the best animals to keep for breeding depending on what allele you are selecting for.
Blue would be considered additive: one copy gives you gray instead of black and a second copy gives you white instead of gray. We use a term called heritability. If a high proportion of the genetic effect is additive (not dominant, recessive or due to gene interactions) the heritability is high. Body weight and conformation have a high heritability and it is easy to select for these characters. This is what bantam breeders have done. They have selected for the alleles that produce a smaller bird and also for the conformation alleles that produce the desired shape at that size. The alleles that give the Leghorn body shape in bantams may not be the same alleles that produce the Leghorn body shape in large fowl. The conformation alleles have to work with the body size alleles that are not the same in bantams and largefowl.
By Anonymous on Sunday, November 25, 2001 - 11:38 pm:
Readers who aren't familiar with this imaginary issue, please see "A Guide to Raising Chickens", G. Damerow, Storey Books, 1995 pages 15 and 16.
First the definitions: The 'true' bantam is one for which there is no large fowl counterpart. The 'miniature' chicken (or 'non-true' bantam) has a large fowl counterpart.
My argument that this is an imaginary issue is this: I can convert a true bantam into a 'non-true' one and vice versa.
The 'true' bantam is converted into a 'non-true' bantam or miniature by simply developing a large fowl version of the bantam. If there is no large fowl counterpart for a bantam, like silkies, it is easy enough to develop one. The genes for the primary 'silkie' characteristics (silkie feathers, fibromelanosis, comb-type and et cetera) are easily enough bred into a large fowl line then select progeny for type. Now the bantams have a large fowl counterpart and are no longer 'true' bantams. One can still argue which came first...but, this is a 'chicken or the egg' argument and is also meaningless.... you could re-develop the bantam from the large fowl by selecting progeny for body type, introduce some dwarf genes, and so on.
Conversely, the 'non-true' bantam or miniature is converted into a 'true' bantam by collecting all the large fowl versions of that breed and killing them. Now there is no large fowl version so the miniatures are now 'true' bantams.
The distinction between 'true' bantams and 'miniatures' is a meaningless distinction.
By Anonymous on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 03:05 pm:
By Daniel (Pollo) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 03:25 pm:
Aren't there large silkies and smaller silkies in Europe? So wouldn't that eman that Silkies are not true bantams....and are only 'true' in the US?
Daniel
By Daniel (Pollo) on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 03:26 pm:
By Anonymous on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 05:11 pm:
You are responsible for how you perceive the world. I don't have anything to do with how you perceive the world ... that is your deal, not mine. I am responsible for how I perceive the world.
By Josh on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 05:51 pm:
By HannahH on Monday, November 26, 2001 - 11:23 pm:
I would also like to add if these are 2 different people, would the second person to post as "Anonymous" in a thread please post as "Anonymous 2" or some such to help us non-anonymous folks keep up with the differing opinions in the conversation.
I very much enjoy learning on this board, and CJR, Rokimoto, Dr. Bruce and now Anonymous seem to be the bearers of real useful knowledge. Posting in a thead as anonymous when there is already one there is confusing. I also mean absolutely no offense to anyone here.