info, you probably are aware . i just saw a conversation on egg color, now this involved brown, but the two parties were in agreement. egg color is sex linked,as is production. therefore use a cockeral hatched from your best dark egg laying hen with the highest number of eggs
I've never seen a paper claiming sex-linkage of egg color, but none of the papers have ever dealt with Marans, Barnvelders, or Welsummers that lay the really dark brown shelled eggs. Were they talking about these breeds?
i did not take note of the breed but there has been much duscussion of marans and producing increasingly dark eggs. it is on a rare breeds discussion board. some even swear that garlic darkens the brown after first causing dark brown spotting??
Thank you for your post, Robb. Frankly, eggshell color is not sex-linked. The blue eggshell gene is known and is certainly not sex-linked. Hutt and Kopec proposed 13 genes to account for the range of brown eggshell colors ... they're not on the Z chromosome (or the W chromosome).
Egg production is an entirely different matter. Egg production is a poly-genic (many genes) trait. An incredible amount of research has been done on egg production. I won't give any reference lists here, but you can get a good start from the review article: R.W. Fairfull and R.S. Gowe "Genetics of Egg Production in Chickens" in "Poultry Breeding and Genetics", R.D. Crawford, Editor, Elsevier (1990) Chapter 29.
i think this could all lead back to another discussion here.the one haw most people are comfortable letting others do their work and thinking for them. research,such as you info, and rokimoto do is hard , time consuming work. it is just easier to read or listen to anything and accept it and pass it on as gospel. i am guilty also, i do hope, not as much. it seems the older i get the more info i need, and i need it verified. one has to be willing to change thoughts and ways to move forward. i encourage others to use this site, but sadly, most already know everything old uncle john taught them. at least, i know one hamburg breeder of longstanding is trying to correct usage of the barring--pencilling use in the standard. old wives tales are hard to change.
Boy.... you got that right, Robb... Wives tails are so extremely diffucult to wag the other way! Jeee... I believe I have lost friendships because of exactly that...
INfo, I talked to some one about your blue egg project. seems they have keen interest,so invited to this site. we shall see. there really are individuals out there in LALA land willing to learn. if i can find them , Ill troll them in.
So Infomaniac, am I to understand that if I get an egg that looks like an eggplant (purple) and hatch a pullet out of it, that pullet could lay normal looking brown eggs? If so, how do you select for dark egg color? The current thinking is to just keep hatching the darkest eggs and you will naturally get darker eggs. Is shell color poly-genic? This would appear to make selecting for egg color very difficult. Also, do you think there is a correlation between diet and shell color? I have been told that the garlic causes minimal amounts of internal bleeding which makes more porphyrin available to the egg. I don't know if this is true. I do know I have seen pictures of Marans eggs from france and they looked like little eggplants!!!
In terms of brown egg shell color it is polygenic. This just means that there are a lot of genes that affect the trait. You can only breed the best to the best and hope for the best. The problem with sex-limited traits like egg shell color is that you can't select males for the trait. A male could have hatched from a dark brown shelled egg, but may not have the genes needed for dark brown eggs. It depends on the genes he inherited from his father and mother and it is a crap shoot as to whether or not he got the genes that you want. The way industry gets around this problem is that they look at the males relatives and estimate the chance that he has the genes that they are looking for. The more relatives have the trait the more likely that male will carry the wanted genes. They also progeny test males and see how their daughters perform. This provides information that can be used to select the males sons and daughters. Most backyard breeders can't do this fancy genetic analysis so they are stuck with trial and error. If you pick the wrong male it can set your selection backwards. the smart thing to do is to have several males producing the next generations so that you may go backwards with some, but hopefully in a forward direction for most, just selecting on the basis of what their mothers did.
By Rokimoto on Monday, January 7, 2002 - 09:25 pm:
By Robbpa on Monday, January 7, 2002 - 09:52 pm:
By Infomaniac on Tuesday, January 8, 2002 - 11:01 am:
Now, I am aware that there are some suggestions that sex-linked genetic factors can influence eggshell color. But, this is very different from saying that eggshell color is a sex-linked trait, which it isn't. The basic blue, brown and white eggshell color genes are NOT sex-linked. Rather there is evidence that there are sex-linked modifying factors that can affect eggshell color. The research in this area was done by Hall. The reference is: G.O. Hall, "Eggshell Color in Crosses between White- and Brown-egg breeds", Poultry Science, volume 23, (1944) pages 259-265.
The pigment responsible for the brown eggshell color is a hemoglobin porphyrin ... basically it is a blood product. The pigment for the blue eggshell color is a zinc chelate of biliverdin (a compound synthesized in the liver). I suspect that the sex-linked modifying factor is something that influences the rate of deposition of the hemoglobin porphyrin onto the eggshell surface
I used to belong to the Rare Breed discussion group, but I had to quit. I wore out my welcome quickly because I tried to correct some nonsensical information then old-timers (one of whom I thought was a friend of mine) tried to pull rank on me rather than offer a logicial defense of what they said (they 'pull rank' by noting that they've been keeping poultry longer than I've been alive... et cetera, which doesn't mean that they know more than I do but that's what they're trying to imply). It's like trying to argue with superstition... there's just no point. I lost my friend when she said "the rooster 'throws' his traits to the daughters" ... well, it is easy to see how myths like that get started, because it is correct for sex-linked traits only and then only if the cross is made correctly... when I tried to correct that ... she pulled rank on me which flies with me like a lead balloon.
Poultry is like gardening... there are a lot of lay-people (like me) enjoying the fancy ... but, that also means that there's going to be a lot of mis- and dis- information passed around. And one has to have a good crap filter. If you'll notice... all the fads in health foods (sea weed, kelp, garlic...et cetera) are getting into the poultry fancy ... I would be more impressed if someone who hated kelp or garlic came to believe that it was good to feed it to her chickens.
By Infomaniac on Tuesday, January 8, 2002 - 11:08 am:
Egg production is very very very complicated .... it just isn't reasonable that something so complex is a sex-linked trait.
The first sentence in the review article I cited above is: "The egg production of a chicken is a result of many genes acting on a large number of biochemical processes, which in turn control a range of anatomical and physiological traits" ....
By Robbpa on Tuesday, January 8, 2002 - 01:54 pm:
By Infomaniac on Tuesday, January 8, 2002 - 02:50 pm:
I believe what I said before about people wanting others to do their thinking for them...., but I don't want to open that can of worms again... And I regret that I spoke my mind on that issue. Some things are better left unsaid. It's no wonder that my husband ran off with another woman! I don't really blame him! He is inferior and needed to find someone on his own level!!! LOL! I have always wished him luck in his search!!!! LOL!
By Robbpa on Tuesday, January 8, 2002 - 04:48 pm:
By Paul Gonzalez (Pgncluck) on Friday, January 11, 2002 - 12:03 pm:
On an unrelated note, I have been trying to follow your genetics posts but am confused on some of the ligo. Why are the genes multiple letters and symbols rather than single letters like we used in school? I assume momo is mottled but I've seen thinds like F+ (just used f as an example, may not mean anything). Can you help me out with some of the genes? Thanks.
By Rokimoto on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 12:52 pm:
There are more genes that letters in the alphabet, so we use single letters when we can, but as more genes are described the symbols get longer. The mo stands for recessive mottling, and the F stands for dominant frizzle. Capitals for the dominant allele (alleles are variant copies of the same gene) and lower case letters for the recessive alleles. Sometimes people place a + symbol with the letters (usually superscript, but that is hard to do in this forum). A + symbol indicates the wild-type allele. For mottling the dominant allele Mo+ is the wild-type (found in junglefowl) and the mo allele is the mutant. For frizzle the dominant allele (F) is the mutant and the recessive allele (f+) is the wild-type.
Except for sex-linked genes all animals have two copies of every gene, so they can have two of the same or two different copies.
Dominant alleles are expressed over the recessive alleles, so an Ff+ bird is frizzle and an f+f+ bird is nonfrizzled. For mottling Mo+Mo+ and Mo+mo birds are not mottled, and momo birds are mottled.