Greetings! I take a woodshop class and was wondering if I could use the sawdust from class to put on the floor of my coop? It would be a mix of all kinds of woods, both hard and soft, and I had heard that some hardwoods can cause respiratory problems. Does anyone have any information on this? Thanks! Annette

Annette, I only want to make one point here. And I don't mean to offend anyone. I never mean offense to anyone.

My point is just this: there is a lot of anecdotal "mis-dis-information" floating around in the fancy. People repeating things that they've heard or read that have no real factual basis ... stuff that hasn't been tested objectively....

A lot of mis-information gets started this way ... I put baby chicks on sawdust then they get the sneezes (respiritory infections) that they would have gotten anyway, but I blame the sneezing on the sawdust and trot out to the internet to report that my chicks have respiratory problems from being on sawdust.... et cetera.

There's a lot of this type of "information" floating around. Information that has no real factual basis.

This is what we do. If we can't find a reliable source (i.e. some scientific study conducted by a poultry scientist ... or at least a reference to a scientific study) we discount that "information" out of hand. You can be certain that it is not reliable.

An example is the 5 degree per week rule for lowereing the temperature at which you keep your baby chicks. You simply cannot find ANY scientific study that supports the 5 degree per week rule.

Frankly, the 5 degree a week rule is complete nonsense, but lots and lots of people believe it. Gail Damerow published it in her books without any citation of research supporting it. Salatin published in the mid 1990s (J. Salatin, "Pastured Poultry Profit$", Polyface, Inc., 1996, page 39) his debunking of the 5 degree a week rule. Then we did our own experiments because we hatch hundreds of chicks per year. Salatin is absolutely correct and our data confirms his. You can lower the temperature in the brooder A LOT faster than 5 degrees per weeks and if you do, you will increase the hardiness of the chicks. Regardless, you will still hear people carping the 5 degree per week rule ...

I'm sure you will get responses to your post expressing opposing opinions. I hope you do. Frankly, I believe that your mixed wood sawdust would be fine as long as none of it comes from pressure-treated or "green-treated" wood (because it has toxic chemicals in it). I know of no RELIABLE evidence to the contrary. I would be reluctant to use cedar shavings because it is a natural insect repellent. But, I would bet that pine, oak, walnut, et cetera would be fine.

It's important for one to do one's own thinking because there's so much unreliable crap that passes for 'information'.

P.S. Here is the Rule of Crap.... if you can't find the source of the information ... I mean the ORIGINAL source and the data used to support those claims... then the 'information' is crap!

Crap means 'unreliable' ... without factual basis. Please notice that all reliable information has an identifiable source ... it is published somewhere with someone's name on it. There is data to support the claims. And it has been published so that critics can evaluate it.

You can apply this Rule to anything. It is universal.

Anetq, good of Info to warn you about treated wood. I would not use sawdust from plywood neither, lots of glue in it. And beware, if sawdust gets damp it can get very moldy and the mold (not the sawdust) could cause respiratory problems. I have no scientific source for this information, just common sense.

Info, I use pine shavings that I buy pressed in bales, very clean and dustfree. I can get sawdust free but I do not like it, to dusty. Of course, my hens are pets, production cost does not matter (they lay golden eggs, LOL). My question is, why are you reluctant to use cedar shavings? I know people use them with good results. Cedar wood costs a fortune here, otherwise I would consider using it, especially because of its insect repellent property. My guess is that it could protect a coop from red mites and other bugs.

Cedar shavings (we have northern white cedar here) are not a problem with chickens. We use them to bed baby rabbits, too.

Info, I appreciate your point about reliable information, but if I always waited for "a reliable source (i.e. some scientific study
conducted by a poultry scientist ... or at least a reference to a scientific study" before adopting or rejecting a course of action, I don't think I'd be in the chicken business very long. The fact is that we can all apply the scientific method in backyard ways in order to determine whether things work as we are told they should. Lots of poultry wisdom comes from careful and ethical practice over the years. We must be very careful not to confuse empirical evidence with scientific evidence.
I appreciate the efforts scientists go to in order to secure knowledge for us all, and I often make use of this knowledge. All wisdom does not, however, come from scientists, but quite a lot of foolishness does. We are obligated to apply tests of common and scientific sense to the pronouncements of the science world.

You may be right about the cedar, anny. We use the "deep litter" method which actually encourages insects in the litter. The bugs eat the manure and the chickens scratch around in the litter to find and eat the bugs... (after all, chickens love to scratch around in manure to get fly maggots and beetles ... cow manure, horse manure... even chicken manure.. they love to do that...)it seems like a great and complete cycle to me and others who believe in recycling as much as possible and sustainability of farming.

The cedar has "anti-feedant" aromatic chemicals (naturally occuring). It keeps insects away and discourages them from feeding, which we don't want in our "deep litter" system. We actually want to see beetles in the litter eating the chicken dung ... and flies and other insects. We have not had a problem with mites or any such pests. And I doubt seriously if the litter on the floor is going to inhibit the mites on the roost, 5-to-6 feet above. I may be wrong and I have no evidence to support my notion. Certainly, the chickens would much rather scratch in the litter for bugs than pick each other's tail feathers bloody.

Also, no research has been done, to my knowledge, on the effect of the cedar "anti-feedant" on poultry. It may well be something that has harmful pulmonary properties in avian species (bird lungs can be sensitive, which started this thread to begin with). What we DO KNOW is that bugs don't like to breathe the air around cedar shavings, so what is it doing to your birds? No one knows. That's my point. Cedar has adverse effects on some forms of life... so why do we think it is good for chickens? .. particularly since no objective research has been done.... The reason is because people do it, and they don't notice anything, so they recommend it to others. Yes, yes, I can provide DDT vapors to birds to breathe too and most will not show any ill effects.... but, I am certain that isn't a good thing to do.

The next thing is this: aromatic chemicals that animals breathe wind up in their blood via the lungs. Have you ever had store-bought ham that had a slight manure (or potty) smell? I have. That's because the hydrogen sulfide in the hog facility that the hogs breathe is also in their blood (gases that animals breathe get in the blood the same way the oxygen gas does) which is in the meat... et cetera. So, now you're feeding that cedar vapor to your family if you butcher your own cockerels, like we do.


I feel strongly that the standards against which "fanciers" evaluate "informational items" that they hear needs to be much higher. There is way too much superstition, myth, "Old Men's Tales", fallacious folklore... et cetera in the poultry fancy.

I believe the lithmus test is this: If you can't identify a source of the "information"... it is highly suspect and you shouldn't believe it. Notice how often "information" in quack fields simply has no identifiable source... That's because it is just crap that the advocates repeat to each other and it goes around and goes around and never has a beginning that is identifiable and no data to support the claims. (Then there are the people who think that "having objective data to support the claims" is a negative thing! LOL! There is no help for them! Don't believe a word they say! LOL!)

Frankly, I really don't know about the cedar issue. But, it is a pesticide or an insect repellent, so I don't want my chickens eating it... and they will eat their bedding...

I understand that I am not politically correct. (And, I hate political correctness.) There IS such a thing as a wrong (or invalid) idea or thought. All opinions are NOT equally valid. There IS such a thing truth and falseness ... right and wrong ... , and opinions that don't express the truth are NOT equally valid as those that do!

Thank you for your post, Bruce. I agree with you that a lot of foolishness comes from "scientists" ... no doubt!

But, you can't expect the lay person to sort out which science is valid and which isn't. Certainly, lay people are the least qualified to make those decisions.

I had this (scary) experience when I served on a jury recently.

anny, where do you get pressed pine shavings? That sounds like something I'd like to try! By the way, thank you to everyone for the information. Before I actually buy my chicks, I want to know as much as I can, so I can give my chickens a nice, safe place to live. I appreciate all the time you all put in in typing your answers! Thanks! Annette

Annette,

I use pine shavings also. My scientific data is this: they are cheaper than the cedar! LOL! I got them from our farmer's co-op for the best price. But they were also available at various feed stores, ranch supply stores and sometimes even in discount stores or home improvement chains.

It is interesting to ponder the cedar issue, Info. I use it in our dog house to help repel fleas and ticks and for them I feel it is better than some of the pesticide alternatives. Chickens seem to be so sensitive to inhaling things though and although I didn't consider that when I chose between pine and cedar, it is something to wonder about!

For what it's worth, pine shavings are what they use in the commercial houses where I live. If there is any science to raising chickens, I'm sure it has all been done in the name of the almighty dollar and getting the most production for the commercial industry. I figure I can adopt *some* of their practices, chuck the dirty environments and over-crowding out the window and treat my flock like pets and we'll all win in the end. :-)

Susie

Infomaniac, Your points are well taken as the apply
to the amount of misinformation that fly's around
the cybor world. But thank goodness there are still
some old time farmers and rancers around to offer
tried and true experience with some great new technology. I have on hand 2500 to 3500 birds at a time

The thing I' must always keep in mind is not doing
things that I know are wrong just because the process
may be easier at the time. When I, run into a problem
that is persistant or reoccuring, I rely on Dr.Smith
and others who have the technical ability along with
good common horse sense to guide me along a path to
defeating my problem. Scientific data is brought about
by theroist, Who A. deal from a totally different deck
of cards. The results of what they do doe's not necessarly influence weather they eat next week or not.

Most farmers rely on commensense instincts with old
time proven methods to bring the crop in. We use the
technical aspects to assist us in improving the old
mouse trap. I like your spunk, keep your thoughts and
insights coming we all need sounding boards.

Well, I have to get in the cedar shavings topic. After 15 years of using the baled, dry cedar shavings for bedding in my poultry houses, I have to say, in summer there are beetles there, and the chickens do eat them. The shavings are aromatic for a while after new ones are put in, but they are so dry that it soon is neutral. They last for months, turned over again and again, and I have had no sickness, besides Marek's, with my birds, no respiratory problems. I use Pine shavings, also dried, baled, for the chicks, after they leave papers, and for the young birds. They eat a lot of it, and it is a little less expensive for the larger pens that the young birds are in. The Pine is dustier than the cedar, but not bad. Both make a nice clean smelling house. The resins in Pine are also aromatic. It remains totally dry--and I prefer dry. Birds are never crowded. Alfalfa hay, with nice green leaves keeps them busy scratching, but I must take out the stems, as they will get wet and poopy, but that is no more work than picking out feathers when they molt. My birds do not often get outside all the winter months, so they really live on these shavings. Summer, they are out daily, on grass, but always back in their houses at night. Scientific--well, it works for me. CJR

Info, you have a way to convert a simple topic into a hot discussion. Mostly I like reading your posts, but not always. Sometimes you sound far too "Almighty". I think you should give some more credit to the lay people in ways of common sense and good judgement. Although most of us might not be so good in mathematics, we are not all completely slow-witted and we are eager to learn.
Personally I have learned a lot from this discussion board where quite a few highly knowledgeable people very patiently keep answering the same questions over and over again and I hereby want to thank them for sharing all their years of experience with all of us newbees.
Indeed, some persons give advice I would not rely on. It is up to the reader to compare and estimate the value of an advice. If a scientist says shit is good for you, I will NOT eat it (not even taste it) because millions of old-timer-backyard-flock-keepers have experienced otherwise and have shared their experience in clear understandable words: shit tastes like shit! (Sorry! bad language! I know! Dr. Smith has a far better way with words!).
But, like Kholant says, we enjoy sounding boards.

Annette, Susie answered your question about where to buy shavings. I buy mine at the feed store. They come in two kinds here, I like the coarse cut best, the fine cut are very fluffy and get dusty and durty much quicker. And, like CJR says so nicely, they make a nice dry clean-smelling house.

CJR, are you using RED cedar? I have never seen red cedar shavings but that wood smells soooo nice. Around here it is very precious, and extremely pricey. It gets sold here in fancy bits and pieces to put in cupboards as a moth repellent.

Anny, The cedar comes from the mills that make fence posts, shingles, fence boards, lumber for home building (Cedar Homes are very popular), as the light weight wood is very resistant to rot. It is not really red at all, but does have the pleasant cedar aroma. The shavings are not expensive--$1 more than Pine shavings in a large bale. The Western RedCedar (Giant Cedar) is native to Northwestern US, British Columbia up to Alaska. It is my understanding that it is not a true Cedar, it is a "Thuja" and not the genus "Cedrus", also known as Redcedar--and the Cedrus wood is really more red in color and highly aromatic for lining cedar chests and other such uses. The lumber industry just calls the "thuja", Redcedar. It is slow growing, can reach HUGE size, and sadly, is being clearcut (requires shade and wet to start and grow) and like the Giant Redwood, is being exploited. I am thankful to have seen it in its great, wonderful forest settings--totally shaded areas with mossy groundcover, some wildflowers and many fungi! It does grow easily from seed, however, and always hope there will be attempts to reforest the Giant Cedars of the NW! We don't read about it! CJR

Actually I believe what we call cedar in this country is a kind of juniper.The 4 true cedars of the world are ,Atlas cedar of N>Africa,Cyprian cedar of Cyprus,Historic cedars of Lebanon, andD.Cedar of the Himalayas. Not that the chickens care.

Pine shaving's are the best utility shaving of them
all. They are normally very clean and bundled for sale,
under the trade name Rosebud. I use a kiln dried pine
shaving produced in Ocala Fl. SOLD BY Semonile Feed
Mill. Once the shavings have outlived there usefulness
they and the chicken by product go to the compost pile.

Helps make a fine fertilizer.

CJR, Robbpa and Kholant, thank you for explaining the false and true cedar for me. I was really confused about it but I have been searching and, as you say, they are from a different family:
Western Red Cedar = Thuja plicata - is a Cupressaceae,
True cedar "cedrus" - is a Pinaceae.
Why are they all called cedar, so confusing!!!
Well, in my garden I have a very true Blue Atlas Cedar called Cedrus Atlantica Glauca that looks gorgeous!

Info, I found this link with information about toxicity of the Thuja plicata "Western Red Cedar".
There is this Swiss (Zurich University) site I keep in my favorites, very useful, pity most of the information comes in german, with tons of information on vet drugs, a list of all known plants that are poisonous to animals and much more: vetpharm

Anny, The lumber industry in America is one of the oldest and exists from coast to coast where different species of the commercially harvested trees, are found in different areas. There are a dozen or more Pines. Common names just continue! Our deciduous evergreen, Western Larch is much more commonly called "Tamarack". It is the same with our homeraised poultry. Here in the Northwest I have never heard baby chicks called "biddies", "bitties", or "peeps"! They are "chicks", but we know the other names--from our friends, from literature, and now from the websites! Local names abound and we have to keep our ears open! Part of the reason we should NEVER be bored! But back to names of wood--it pays to know what you are buying, depending upon the use! . . . . and then it helps to know German and other languages, doesn't it. . . no end???? CJR

That aromatic cedar for cedar chests is eastern red cedar, which grows wild all through southern Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, and into the Carolinas, I would expect. I know of a sawmill in south-central Kentucky that smells very good when you drive by!
Info: there's a problem when you say "But, you can't expect the lay person to sort out which science is valid and which isn't. Certainly, lay people are the least qualified to make those decisions." And yet, we must make these choices for ourselves, ultimately. Some people may not be very good at it, but I don't like the idea that someone has to be in charge of telling everyone whether science project x is valid or not. The practitioners must be able to justify their scientific work to others in plain language. If they can't, they are like musicians or artists who throw their hands up in exasperation when the average citizen doesn't understand the painting or the composition by osmosis. I call this music for musicians, or art for artists. It leaves me cold. And scientists who can't find their way back to the real world now and then are no better. We have a wonderfully descriptive language that everyone can use to explain what they are doing. Then we can decide for ourselves whether the person is telling the truth, and whether we agree that the result is worthwhile.
Is this a great board, or what?

And the Eastern White Cedar, also called Hackmatack, is in fact a False White Cedar "Thuja occidentalis" (Eastern/occidentalis???).
By the way, every kind of Thuja is toxic +++, all parts of the plant but especially the leaves.

Dr. Smith, thanks. That Eastern Red Cedar, is that a true or a false cedar (Thuja or Cedrus)? I will never catch the trick. Here we call a Thuja a ???? Thuja, of course.
I know this is a chicken board, Yes this is a GREAT BOARD!!! But I have one more question, if I may. What is a cedar chest, please?

CJR, thanks, and can you believe it sometimes even pays to know some Flemish.

Annette, sorry if we all got carried away from the subject of this thread: sawdust or not?
As I said above, even if free I would not use sawdust - IMHO shavings are much better and some straw in the nestboxes - although with caution you could use sawdust, I guess. But who am I to give you advice? I'm just a beginner myself. So I hereby earnestly and humbly appeal to CJR, Dr. Smith and the other experts: please give your good advice about bedding.
And, Annette, welcome to chickenworld!

Occidentalis makes me think Occidentis which brings to mind "quemodmodem gladius neminum occdet, occidentis telum est"(Lucius Annaeus)4BC-65AD: Way before Clintonius Controlus.

Occidentalis means western - Orientalis means eastern, normally that is, but with cedar you never know, do you???? Who is/was Clintonius Controlus?

Folks this is really getting out of hand. I,beleive
the initial scope of the question was do I, or don't
I, use sawdust?. The reason this question was asked is simple. The party did not know the cause and effect of
using sawdust. Small granuals of any product can be
a problem for the chick. If you are feeding A mash
the chick could accept the dust material for it's feed.

Only bad outcome can come from this. Commen sense is
the key to success here. Check with your local feed
provider, and tell them what your situation is. They
should be able to direct you to the right size shaving
to use. Would I, use sawdust NO. Best of luck on
your choice poster, and let us know your outcome.