Greetings! You have all been so helpful that I find myself gravitating towards this board every chance I get! I have three questions today: 1. I am thinking of buying a shed from Lowe's and converting it to a chicken coop. How can I put up insulation? I know it must be chicken-proof, but how do I go about doing that? 2. Has anyone used a wooden ladder for a roost, laying it horizontal across the coop?? 3. Not sure how to ask this one, and I'm not even sure I'd be able to do it because I have a funny feeling that my chickens will become pets, but here goes: After killing and plucking, does the meat have to be chilled before eating? The reason I'm asking is because my neighbor said that you could not eat a freshly killed bird because it was tough, and since I don't know anything about it, I thought I would come to the experts! Thanks for all of your help!! Annette

1. We use 1" rigid foam insulation here, and cover it with plastic-coated masonite or used wood paneling. We also have some hollow walls which we fill with cedar shavings for insulation. The rigid foam takes up less room.
2. Haven't tried a ladder, but it would probably work. Most folks here seem to like flat boards for roosting, and I must say that after using poles for many years, my hens do seem to like the flat boards better.
3. Chilling is always a part of slaughter, I guess because no one puts it in the pot that fast. We like to keep birds chilled in the fridge for a couple of days before cooking, just like letting a hog or a steer hang for tenderness. We always say it's to let the rigor mortis go out of the muscle, but I don't know if that's an established fact. Hope this helps.

I would adda couple of notes. Make sure to set you building on blocks or treated timbers 6" off the ground. This prevents rot and rat problems. I feel insulated walls are good habitat for vermin. Good ventilation, not a draft, is more preferable than warmth. Cold will not bother an animal that is getting proper nutrition. Two days for hogs and birds, 4 to 7 for beef to age on the rail. This allows the fibre of the muscle to begin to break down, thus tenderizing it. In big packers today cattle are injected with tenderizer while still on the hoof so bloodstream can carry it throughout the body. Factory chicken doesnt get old enough to get tough. One additive they are fed to promote fast growth is arsenic. I am sure Rokimoto can add to the list of growth promoting hormones etc.

This last issue of Time Magazine has an interesting article about the use of medicines in poultry (mostly antibiotics)Page 98 of Jan. 21, 2002 issue. It's enough to make you want to raise your own natural poultry.

We're in South Dakota (extremely cold winters) and we don't insulate the hen houses at all. The laying flock free-ranges and roosts in the hen house at night. It is always about 30 degrees warmer in the hen house than it is outside from the body heat of the birds (we keep about 300 or so hens in two houses that is about 150 sq. ft.)..

We too worry a lot about the vermin. We have killed two weasels and earlier this past season, we kept finding birds with bloody toes and missing toenails. Then I saw a giant rat run out from under one of the nest boxes and realized that we had to do something to get the rats. Then I lost 10 chicks from the brooder pen to rats. I agree with Robbpa, I'm glad we didn't insulate the walls ... it would just be too good a place for rats to live right among the birds. I don't mean to contradict the other posters.... things like this are a personal call. You decide what you want to do.

A lot of the popular hobby literature (for example, Gail Damerow's book, "A Guide to Raising Chickens") recommends flat boards for roosts. It seems odd, since birds sit in trees, but chickens spend most of their lives on the ground and walk on flat surfaces rather than tree limbs. Our birds roost mostly in the rafters of the hen house on the flat 2 x 4 woods up there.

I've always been told to 'age' the meat in the refrigerator to let it 'relax'. I don't know where this information comes from, but it makes sense a little... certainly the execution probably does make the bird tense....

Good luck

Good point on wall insulation. It's important to make sure that vermin cannot get into the insulated space. This is another reason why the insulation must be covered with something hard, like the melamine-coated masoninte. If the siding is put on tight (we use osb reverse board-and-batten) then there is no space that mice or rats can enter. The bedding is removed often enough that we can observe any places where a mouse has chewed into the space. So far, we have not had any mice in this building. I suspect that this is at least partially because it has a treated floor that is up off the ground about a foot. The floor rests on treated 2X6 joists which sit on treated 4X6 runners. This allows me to pull the building around with the tractor if I want to do so. The back door has hardware cloth and screen, and the window has screen and a part of a cattle panel covering it. The door is insulated steel. The insulated roosting hood keeps them comfortable on the roost at night.
Interesting note on medications in poultry. Some of the big processors are advertising that they don't add any hormones to their chicken, and only use "minimal processing." Of course, no one accused them of this anyway. The problem has been that routine medication while the birds are growing causes potential problems for consumers. These packages don't say anything about antibiotics, naturally.
Info: do you have 150 birds in each 150 square foot building? Do you have to take any extra measures to manage bedding or moisture because of these numbers? I would think that an uninsulated building that size with 150 birds would be dripping wet in the cold weather just from moisture condensation. Is the ceiling or roof insulated at all? And if it stays 30 degrees warmer, isn't it still pretty cold in there when it's -20 outside? Does this affect laying at all? Our birds react to the cold by reducing output at least somewhat. It's the thing that seems to affect them the most.

If I use a floorless shed, is it possible to lay down hardware cloth on the bare ground, making sure it extends at least a foot around each side of the shed, and then lay down plywood, and then bedding inside the coop. I was thinking that, with the hardware cloth on the ground, it would be difficult for anything to burrow underneath the coop. I could then attach the excess cloth around the outside of the coop, making sure there were no gaps. Then, it would be easy to replace the plywood on the floor if needed, because it is not attached to the coop. Any thoughts?

I would think that plywood would just warp and create a mess if it's laid on the ground like that. I have a vision of warped boards that move when you walk on them and chicken toes getting pinched.

With a dirt floor, why not just dig a trench of a few inches around the perimeter and push the hardware cloth down into it, and then attach it up to the sides of the house? I'm thinking similar to some gardening techniques to keep rabbits from digging in and they recommend you bury chicken wire or your fencing a few inches into the ground. Just a thought. Not sure how difficult it would be to pull off.

Susie

Actually, it would still be possible for critters (rats especially) to tunnel under your setup, but the hardware cloth would keep them from coming up into the building through the floor (at least until the hardware cloth rusted away). The concern about warping boards and pinched toes is a legitimate one. I have one piece of treated plywood just laying on the floor in front of the door, and the edges of it warp up a little bit sometimes. It doesn't cause a problem because it's under the bedding. If you put down hardware cloth, I'd want very heavy plastic over that before putting plywood down. Could you notch your plywood so it would fit around the building's studs and plates? About two or three screws along the edges would keep your plywood in place.
Overall, I would still like to see this building either up off the ground, or on concrete. That's my two cents worth!

Annette, how many birds do you plan to keep? If it's just a few, they will have a hard time keeping each other warm and, depending on your climate, the size of your coop and it's insulation grade, you might even need some kind of heat source.
I would opt for a well built plywood floor, easy to sweep out and always dry with a good layer of shavings, and the whole building up 8" on blocks.

THank you all for your notes. Yes, Bruce, we had a lot of moisture problems at first. When we first built those houses, they were really tight. We even taped the cracks between the tops of the walls and the roof...but, that was a mistake. That first winter it was really wet in there. The walls would frost up and the birds enjoyed nibbling the frost off the walls. Also, the chickens ate the foam rubber weather stripping around the main door. (We can debate whether or not chickens can taste anything, but they will eat some pretty strange stuff.)

The summer of the second year, my brother installed turban-style attic vents in the roofs of the hen houses. At 20 below, it is still a toasty + 10 in the hen house at night. A little 40 watt light bulb under the galvanized metal waterer is enough to keep it from freezing up in sub-zero weather. We do see a significant drop in production during the winter....and the feed consumption increases, since the grass is usually under snow. One trick we use is to hatch a group of layers in June so they start laying in December.

We have tunneling predators here (South Dakota). We will NEVER put a poultry house on the ground. Rats will drag the babies, alive, down into their tunnels and you can hear them cry...weasels, racoons, ... there's just too many predators for us to worry about here. My galvanized waterers even get rust spots on them... I wouldn't trust buried hardware cloth to last very long. The only thing that makes sense for us is to put the poultry houses up on blocks and build a floor from treated lumber and keep enough beding in the house for a good layer of insulation.

P.S. We stack hay around the bottom of the houses to keep the frigid prairie wind from whistling underneath.

An old way to provide good ventilation is ,construct hollow double wall in front of coop,leave bottom 4" open on inside, cover this with hardware cloth. Drill 1/2" holes on the outside at same height, actually, cover these holes with hw cloth. Hinge board so it covers vent holes if needed. At approx. 48" on inside leVE A 4" OPENING then at a point just under rear roof, drill 1/2" holes. This chimney will allow air to change and not directly put a draft on birds. When it gets real cold I feed cayenne pepper to the birds. They double production and I dont need Tobasco sauce on my fried eggs and scrapple.:>)

LOL! Feed 'em onions, salt and ketchup and you don't need any seasoning on the scrambler! Didn't Ron Popeil try to market an 'inside the egg' scrampling machine?

Anny, since we are just starting out, we were thinking of keeping 15 to 20 birds. The shed I'm considering is from Lowe's, and is something like 10' long by 6' high and maybe 8' deep. I hadn't thought to put it up on blocks, but I might have to. What type of blocks do I use, and where do I get them? Rethinking this, I could get the shed with the optional floor, and then cut a piece of plywood to fit and then put the whole thing up on 8" blocks. We live in the Midwest, and I was considering insulation until it was brought up that rodents and the like might start moving in. What a bummer, I thought I had this all figured out! Well, in the end I should have a very nice coop/run for my chickens if I do it right the first time!

As far as putting hay bales under the coop, I like that idea for further insulation, but wondered if animals would start making homes there to keep warm during the winter? Annette

Anetq, There are concrete blocks made especially for buildings. My first house was built on heavy timber "skids" and we moved the building near the shop for an extention cord for lights and heat in winter, and moved it to a shady spot for summer. Tractor dragged it easily, from either end. I sold that house, after 40 years, it was still in great shape, but the skids (always placed on shims to keep them from direct contact with the earth) were beginning to show some rot and flaking on the bottoms).
My new houses still have the timbers set up on the concrete squares (they are under my deck supports--used lots in building) , so I could sell any of the 3 poultry houses and they could be easily
moved. They are 8'x10', 10'x15' and 10'x20'. Because mice would chew through the floor boards of my first h ouse--awful, we placed hardward cloth over the plank flooring, which then became a subfoor, And then placed exterior plywood over the hardward cloth. We insulated the walls of the old house, but had on hand the fiberglass batts of insulation and covered it with 1/2" plywood. But the mice got in from the outside walls, knotholes--was constantly plugging holes with hardward cloth patches! So that house is GONE.

The new houses have the skids, subfloor, the hard, dense, insulation board under floors and in the walls, ceiling, all then covered with plywood. My windows are all scavenged from old buildings and do not fit all that tight--natural ventilation, but there are ventilators at each gable end of the houses. My windows are LOW to keep the hot summer sun off the floors and to allow the "lowinthesky" winter sun to fill the houses with light and warmth. Most of the windows are on the south, with no windows on the north sides, as that is where our cold winter winds may come from. While I do have radiator heaters for the zero weather, I would not need them at all, if I had 50 large chickens or more in each house. As it is, at lowest setting, the houses are 40-50f with very low cost. These houses should still be like new in 50 years. They are never wet, in fact completely dry, and if there is a telltale condensation on the windows,a door or window is opened at once. If allowed to remain, I can assure you there would be sneezing and respiratory problems at once. I have fortunately had none!

And as for putting haybales around the coop, I would have a million mice in two weeks! I do place old 1x14 boards around the base of the houses in winter to keep the wind from running under??. But in some areas hay r straw bales would be a good addition to insulation from cold and wind, just not where I live.

We each have to assess what will work for us. what materials are at hand, or available. And if you would do the floor first, other additions can wait (for me, it was always until I could afford it). It will be different in different climates. It is hard for me to imagine the 3 sided shelters where chickens roost in some warmer climates. So many varmits are just waiting for an open invitation to dine on my birds. Even a bird that would roost in a tree would disappear in a night, to an owl or a raccoon.

In closing, I think you will be very disappointed if you keep a dirt floor or any flooring that lays right on the dirt. I also think you would be pleased to have your house "movable", because we may want to rearrange our yard and garden in the future and a well constucted house or coop, kept clean, can be easily converted to a garden house, kennel, or ?? and be a real asset to our "estate"! Best wishes, CJR

We've been using haybales around the bottom of the houses for a long time. I'm sure there must be some mice, but we haven't had a problem with them. Perhaps the barn cats control them for us. We haven't had any other critters trying to live under the chicken houses, but we were concerned about that for a while and used to look under there every day or two.

Our chicken houses are pretty big and our birds free-range. The hay bales also keep the hens from going under there to lay their egg where no one but the snakes could get.

We did have a rat problem but that wasn't due to hay bales. The rats come for the feed. Then they ate 10 of my chicks from the brooder. We keep a couple of poison stations active which seems to have solved the rat problem (and probably the mice issue as well... what the cats don't get). So far (knock wood) we haven't had any problem with the cats killing our chickens, although I have composted many a cat but only when the cat population started to overun us.

Anetq: You can use insulation with no problems if you keep the vermin out of it. Don't give up on the idea because some have had a problem. In our case we have no mice or other critters in the insulation, and none chewing outside in four years now. You can install mouse-proof insulation. CJR is right about putting the floor right on the ground, though. I think that would just be an invitation to trouble, sooner or later.

Our coop is just a shed that we added roosts (large dowels) and nesting boxes to. The roof is just tin and the shed itself is just wood and exterior panels. There is space between the roof and pannels, and in winter we stick chunks of that pink insulation in. We have 2 mesh windows and we cover them with plexiglass. We hang cloth over the chicken entrances to keep out the cold as well. The floor is just dirt and from time to time we have some mice (and one rat), but a few traps and they're gone. We keep all the chicken food in big plastic (thick)containters so the vermin aren't drawn to the coop.

Sunni, if you live in an area where you have racoons(sp), weasels, 'possums, et cetera, and you only have a cloth over the chicken entrance (assuming the 'entrance' is a pathway in and out of the shed), you're pretty lucky that you haven't lost a lot of birds!

I invite you to take a look at my links page to see the link for predators (near the bottom of the page).

shoot, that seems to be a broken link now. It was a really nice link to a description of all important poultry predators and a discussion of their MOs and living habits.

Infomaniac, our coop is in a fenced yard. That doesn't keep out predators, but it's a big hinderance. The only predators we really have are cats.
But yes, for most people, I would reccommend locking the coop up at night.

oh, Someone above mentioned hay bales... I never had a mouse/rat problem until we got horses and stored the hay near our coop. Ugh.