Nolen,

By far the most beautiful ornamental chicken is the Japanese Bantam! Legitimate Jap breeders don't offer chicks or eggs, for the same reason Jean doesn't ship them. If price is the first concern, raising Japanese Bantams is not a poor man's hobby. Don't look at pictures of good Japanese unless your pockets are deep. You will have to have them and this can cause untold agony--especially if you are forced by economics to take a lesser breed. Good Dutch bantams are probably the only acceptable substitute, right, Jean R.?

Nolen,
The Murry McMurry hatchery in Webster City Iowa has a free Catalog with LOTS of great pictures. I love Cochins. You might have a look at them.
Lee

Yes, their catalog has lots of great pictures, just don't expect the birds to resemble them!

John:
Where would I find a practical guide to selecting bantams for breeding stock? Do any hatcheries provide decent stock for starting? You seem to be pretty down on McMurray. Did you order from them at one time?
I would like to do some good selection but am not sure where to start. I am not a breeder who believes that the show ring is where perfection is defined. I have seen plenty of other animals who are big show winners who are loaded with problems and are worse than useless as an animal on the farm. Thanks for your help.

Dear Dr. Smith,

I am "down" on McM and the other hatcheries for the simple reason that I have seen what they deliver. I would buy from them if their stuff in any way resembled the breeds described in the Standard. The euphemism they hide behind is "not show quality" when in fact many of the breeds they represent in pictures appear to be mixed-breed when they arrive, especially the Japanese.

A good guide to selecting bantams for breeding is Bantam Chickens by Fred P. Jeffrey. Also you need a copy of the breed standard before you can make an informed choice. The very best place to see representative examples of the breeds is at a poultry show. If you are looking for Japanese Bantams, I can help. The poultry shows do define excellence in poultry. I have other breeds too, but I won't promote then through this forum, as it is reserved for discussion about Japanese Bantams.

Thanks for the reference. Shows define conformation to a standard, but perfection must include practicality, in my book. I tested for DHIA for a while, and the best milkers in the barn never won the top prizes in the ring. There are about a zillion other examples, too. The barn (or the henhouse in this case) and the show ring are just two different worlds. They need to acknowledge each other, but when ring considerations push all other considerations aside, that's a problem, in my opinion.

Do the Japanese have a reputation for being good layers, or are they largely ornamental? Are there breeders you could recommend in the NE Wisconsin/UP area? Thanks.

In the case of Japanese Bantams, the show and the barn are one and the same. Being purely ornamental in purpose, the shows give the breeder a chance to evaluate his or her progress objectively. Sure, they lay reasonably well, but the small eggs hardly warrant keeping them for that purpose. The purpose in keeping these birds has, for hundreds of years, been purely aesthetic. They add much to the appearance and interest of a fine garden, and even contribute to weed control, fertility, and insect control. I keep exhibition Rhode Island Reds to supply us with eggs for the table. The show ring has not hurt my Reds any, especially since I keep in mind the Standard--which states they are good producers of brown eggs.

You are so right about problems arising from too much emphasis on the show ring. A win is worth little if you can't repeat it.

I can supply you with names and addresses of club members in the upper midwest region, and you can determine for yourself if any of them are actually breeders. There are only a dozen or so people who are actually breeders in the Japanese Bantam Breeders Association. The remainder of members are people getting started, with pet chickens, or former breeders wanting to stay in touch.

Why are Japanese bantams so expensive? What is the cost factor that drives the selling price up so high? If $50 each is short of breaking even, what is the major expense?

The major expenses are housing, feed, losses from predation, disease; the cost of being selective, utilities, travel and so on. It sounds very much like you have not been breeding exhibition poultry for quite some time, if at all. It has been my goal to provide top-quality breeding stock at a reasonable cost. $100 would be the going price for what I am making available. I can sell you $25 down to $5 birds if you like but of course I would not want anyone to think that my culls were breeding stock. My exhibition birds are not for sale at any price, though I occasionally loan one or give one away to a friend.

As I said before, I do not believe perfection is achieved in shows, and for that reason (and others) I do not do show poultry. Since I do raise practical, working poultry that pay for themselves many times over, I just wondered what was so costly about yours. How many shows do you attend each year? Is travel the largest single component of your expense ledger? What is the cause of most of your predation losses?

Dr. Smith,

Since showing is our main objective, selectivity is the biggest single expense factor in raising exhibition birds. With careful matings, one can
probably expect 10-20% of the birds raised to be of value as breeders or exhibition birds in any year. If a breeder achieves a higher yield, they usually suffer from the loss of genetic variability, and are giving fuel to those who bad-mouth exhibition birds.

Over the years, predators have taken no more than 5% of the birds on the yard. Most of my predation losses are from raccoons and Cooper's Hawks.

I only take minimal steps to control disease, since one of the important objectives in a breeding flock is to produce and protect vigor and disease resistance.

Since I was able to build my own housing, I was able to keep the cost under $6,000 for the whole setup. If you figure the facility will give a good ten years of service, that is only $600 a year, compared to over $1000 a year in feed. I have indoor space for approximately 200 adult birds. Without adequate insulated housing, every bird could be spoiled for showing in a cold snap.

To show at a variety of shows, there needs to be four or five birds in the flock for every bird shown, unless the exhibitor only wants to exhibit at one show a year. If I expect to sell 15-20 top breeding birds a year without selling my flock short, I will have to hatch 300. I have to consider this to be a hobby for my own entertainment and keep the majority of the good birds through the show season to justify the cost. I figure that each exhibition bird I produce costs at least $100. This may be a conservative estimate.

The transportation is only a factor in hauling the feed and an occasional trip to purchase or deliver stock, making it a minor, but significant expense. A vehicle capable of hauling a ton of feed is a necessity. In the summer months, I buy the feed a ton at a time.

I have not figured a true cost of utilities, but a little math against the brooder lights and incubator would give an idea of the annual cost of utilities. I do see a significant increase in the electric bill when the brooder and incubator is running.

The cost of travel to the shows is not considered, but without sucesses at the shows, few, including myself, would be interested in the birds. I travel to 8 shows a year, with an average expense of $250 per show.

Don't even think about labor, and what it costs to pay someone to tend the flock on the weekends away at shows and fairs. When someone expects for me to sell them a bird that cost me $100 to raise for $5, I feel like asking them to tend to flock for a week for $5 and I'll give them the $5 bird.

I do provide young birds to kids who want to participate in 4-H and the poultry hobby, but I will not sell them finished exhibition birds. I provide them at a reasonable cost because I feel that they ought to be introduced to a wonderful and fulfilling hobby. I have kept 'practical' birds for many years, but over time we chose to breed exhibition birds,which has been infinitely more rewarding to us.

John deSaavedra
Barnyard Bantam Farm
5899 Blacks Rd.
Pataskala, Ohio 43062

I am trying to locate the Murry Mcmurry hatcherys. Could someone please list there address. I ordered from them many years ago and was very pleased with the chickens I recieved.

Cindi, Their website is: http://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com You can get their catalog from the website, and I think you can order from it, too. I have not looked at the site for ages. CJR

I found a white Japanese hen at a local feed store and she was so beautiful that I bought her for $4 and she is successfully living with 5 large breed hens in my backyard! She is very friendly and lays the nicest eggs. Now all I need is a roo! What's the best way to find others of her type? Should I order eggs and let her hatch them? Will she go broody?

We have 18 chicks all have been doing well.All chicks have been
vacinated for Mareks disease as well.Suddenly this morning I went
down to the barn to feed them and one was laying under the heat
lamp,I thought no big deal she's just resting,well when i put the
food out she still did not get up which I thought strange.i picked
her up examined her could not see anythig wrong,but as I put her
back down shehad a hard time standing,she tried to but her legs
shook ,like as if they were not strong enough to hold her up and
as she tried to walk forward she fell face forward to the ground.So
i picked her up and fed her some water and then placed her to the
side of pen away from the other chicks.I thought maybe i could
give her some viamins in her water or maybe Pedialite,any one
have ideas> Thank you,Karen

Karen,

Sometimes you get a chick that doesn't prosper. It can be missing something internal, but is able to live a few days on stored energy from the egg. I know this isn't much comfort, but sometimes there is little you can do beyond what you have already outlined. Some things to be aware of is you chicks should not be exposed to litter until they learn to eat your feed, or they can run the risk of learning to eat litter instead. Also shipped chicks need to be introduced to the water or they can dehydrate--no mother to show them and they've spent the first two days of life in a box with no opportunity to learn about drinking, You are welcome to contact me with further questions, as this forum is difficult to find.
John
jdesaave@columbuus.rr.com

I just got 4 Japanese Chickens,1 Rooster and 3 Hens one is laying eggs now the last 2 days and I was wondering since she is sitting on them should I separate the Rooster and other Hens?If no when do I need to separate the Rooster or other Hens?I think she'll be a good Mother!

I have a Japanese rooster and hen that I want to breed. but the hen does not want to sit on her eggs. any suggestions on a good incubaor.